Changes that effect traditions.

[The Pred]

I have no problem with your answer. Now to play devil's advocate once again. If the job is to teach students to use their strength why can't a 14 year old get a shodan.

[JR 137]

So how does the 18, 115 ib female fair against the 32 year old 255 pounder?

I could have seen this one coming... but your not going to like my answer.

I also do not see gender as an obstacle. We all have deficiencies, strengths and weaknesses. The key is to teach your students how to maximize their strengths and to use their weaknesses to their benefit.

It kills me that Karateka would ever question how someone could overcome a stronger or larger person. Is this not what we teach our students? Is this not what we find within the Kata/Bunkai. We are taught every day how to overcome larger opponents. We are taught how to capitalize on our opponents weaknesses. So yes she would fair just fine.

Is ego a weakness? It is when you go into a fight thinking you have already won because you underestimate your opponent.

I can take a larger man down just as fast as a smaller one. I see no difference. The body can be damaged if you understand it's weaknesses. A large man is the same as a small man. You obviously approach each situation differently and assess them according to their strengths and weaknesses but lets face it, if you strike me in the throat do I not gasp for air?

To answer your question she would fair about the same as a 18 yr old 115 lb male. The strategy would differ, their approach would differ, their strengths and weaknesses differ but when they square off they will do as they have been trained to do and they will through their own way hold their own.

I have seen mountainous men be taken down by the smallest of men. The worst I have ever been beaten was by a guy that weighed a 100 lbs soaken wet. It did not matter that I was trained or out weighed him by more than a 100 lbs.

I have also witnessed women take down larger males by utilizing their strengths and their training. Why train if it doesn't matter if you actually meet someone that out weighs, is stronger, is scarier than you?

Women can be just as dangerous as men if trained properly. It's also a matter of mentality. How willing are you to be maimed? If a woman hurts you enough and you start to realize that you may be permanently injured do you quit? It's not the dog in the fight, it's the fight in the dog.

Oh and let me clarify. I do not give a pass or take it easy on someone just because they are a girl. They train the same and test the same as the men. Gender does not give you a pass out on the street so there is no pass in the Dojo.

Again, some might think me to old school but it is what it is. This is how I have been brought up in the arts and this is how I bring my students up in the arts.

And yes before someone else asks, there are those students that do not share my mentality and do not stay with me. But again that's just the way it is. I am not there to baby sit. I am here to teach and to pass on the art that I love to worthy students.

I do not have favorites and all students are treated as equal and as such are trained and tested the exact same no matter age, gender, size, weight, or any other difference. I do not see differences, I see students. And as such I take their training seriously and expect them to as well.

Lets face it we are not training to patty cake with a mugger, rapist, or murderer. We train so that if (God forbid) we meet that person that looks to do us harm, we can defend ourselves and walk away so that we can continue to live our lives. That's as simple as it is.

Having said this I do not put the thought in my students mind that their is someone or some type of person that they can not beat. To me this is self defeating and guarantees them to loose if placed in this situation. Why then would I say that a 18 yr old 115 lb girl could not hold her own and/or do damage sufficient to walk away from an altercation with a larger man?

I wouldn't because I believe if trained correctly anyone can stand up to anyone.

I know it's coming so I'll further clarify... No I am not saying that everyone of my students can whip anyone in the world. I realize that others may be further in their journey and have more skill and knowledge. I get that a Shodan may not be able to beat a Sandan or a girl may not be able to ward off a trained professional MMA fighter. I am not invincible nor would I claim to be. I am old and can't do some of the things I could do as a younger man but I can say I can hold my own against larger, stronger, and younger men because I do it on a weekly basis. You don't have to be the badest you only have to know how to end the fight if you need to.

This is quite possibly the best answer I've ever read on a forum.

[JR 137]

Regarding looking up to yudansha as you're coming up...

My first time coming up, the yudansha were as you described - tough as nails, excellent technique, etc. I admittedly may have been looking at them through rose tinted glasses, however. As I got closer to shodan, I saw more flaws in their technique. Not gross flaws by any means, but the more you know, the easier it is to spot less than perfection. You'd figure I'd lose some respect for them, but on the contrary my respect grew immensely. I started to know first hand what it took to get there - the hard work, determination, the hours put in, bumps and bruises, and most of all the mentality to not make excuses. The more imperfections I saw in their technique, the more determination I saw in their spirit. I started to realize it wasn't solely about fighting ability; it was just as much about a never quit mentality.

This time around, I see even more imperfections. I see a sandan who's got two bum knees who can't even kneel in seiza, yet she's there 4 nights a week doing everything she physically can without making excuses. I see a yondan who's had 4 neck surgeries and two lower spine surgeries who has yet to complain about anything, and help anyone at any time. I see another yondan who's phenomenal physically, and never thinks he's above anyone in the dojo. He pulls me aside and teaches me something after class every time I have the pleasure of taking class alongside him (I don't mean when he's teaching class).

That's what yudansha is all about. The ones who can't perform well anymore still earned their rank. They certainly performed when they could. And if they had the misfortune of having to defend themselves right now, they'd easily be crafty enough to take care of business and be more than mentally tough enough. Someone walking into the dojo may see some of our yudansha and think our kaicho hands out dan ranks for money. Train with them and it's quite apparent where they were and what they went through to earn it, and what they're going through to keep it.

Sorry, I was on a roll.

Lowering the standards to modernize takes all of that away. Students may not look up to every yudansha initially, but the more time they spend with them, the more they'll realize what it truly means. Lower the standards, and the concept of attaining shodan gets diminished.

Sorry, but no way, no how does a child exhibit any of this modeling for lower ranks. I know it took them dedication and determination. I'm sure they've had their obstacles too. And some have possibly had it tougher than adults have had it. I know I contradicted myself there, but I don't know how to say it other than kids aren't adults. There's a big difference.

[MatsuShinshii]

I have no problem with your answer. Now to play devil's advocate once again. If the job is to teach students to use their strength why can't a 14 year old get a shodan.

I get where you are heading. However and again a child does not, no can not in my mind exhibit my ideal of what a Shodan is and never will. I don't have a problem with other instructors promoting kids if they feel this is right for them and their organization. It's not right for mine.

There is a maturity level needed for the grade and I would never teach a child what I teach adults. I'm sorry if you can't convince me as I realize you believe in this practice and are trying to get your point across but for me it will never happen.

And as JR 137 pointed out, it's hard to look up to a kid as the ideal of what Yudansha represents. Again old school thinking for an old dog I guess but somethings, especially the core beliefs will never change.

[tubby]

I'm impressed that an organisation has grown to that size focused on adults, that shows the value people place on training that often just isn't possible in mixed classes with younger kids.

I gather the reason for wanting to expand is money, but is it possibly queries from the current adult students about their children joining? Have they tabled plans for how they would handle this? Will they be having kids only classes? Are the instructors in a position to take on more classes or will you have to promote new instructors? and book more time in shared facilities. If they are combined classes that may deter a lot of current students as, in my limited experience, you are offering a significant product in the market without the kids.

[MatsuShinshii]

I'm impressed that an organisation has grown to that size focused on adults, that shows the value people place on training that often just isn't possible in mixed classes with younger kids.

I gather the reason for wanting to expand is money, but is it possibly queries from the current adult students about their children joining? Have they tabled plans for how they would handle this? Will they be having kids only classes? Are the instructors in a position to take on more classes or will you have to promote new instructors? and book more time in shared facilities. If they are combined classes that may deter a lot of current students as, in my limited experience, you are offering a significant product in the market without the kids.

It's been that way as long as I have been with the organization. Most of Shinshii's students are military, police, security, etc.

That is my guess, its always about money. Yes, we get queries all the time to change the bylaws and allow students children to train.

Unfortunately no. Some of us have brought up the issue with how to incorporate this but have been told that if it passes we will figure it out. I can tell you that if it did pass a separate class would have to be added by those instructor wanting them. There is no possible way that a kid could join one of my classes (even lower Mudansha classes) the way we teach now. For one they could not handle the pace or intensity. And two they could not handle nor understand the combat methodology of the classes.

To me the association is either going to change the way we teach and sell out or they are going to maintain things as they are now.

I for one will never teach kids so I don't have to worry about organizing special classes that will take up more of my personal time. I don't don't need the money nor the hassle. I own my Dojo so rent is not an issue and I could care less about discounts that are being offered.

I have trained and taught the same way for over three decades and I just don't see me changing that because of a vote to increase numbers. I have the second largest student numbers in our association and can tell you that 90% of my students are against the entire concept. I am not going to loose my students over adding kids classes. That and I am way to direct and way to demanding to teach little kids. I would have little kids running for their mommies telling them that Shinshii is mean. That and I could not stomach having someone tell me that they think their kid deserves to test or question my teaching methods. It would not work for me personally.

I would never personally do this because I don't have to.

[MatsuShinshii]

I have no problem with your answer. Now to play devil's advocate once again. If the job is to teach students to use their strength why can't a 14 year old get a shodan.

I get where you are heading. However and again a child does not, no can not in my mind exhibit my ideal of what a Shodan is and never will. I don't have a problem with other instructors promoting kids if they feel this is right for them and their organization. It's not right for mine.

There is a maturity level needed for the grade and I would never teach a child what I teach adults. I'm sorry if you can't convince me as I realize you believe in this practice and are trying to get your point across but for me it will never happen.

And as JR 137 pointed out, it's hard to look up to a kid as the ideal of what Yudansha represents. Again old school thinking for an old dog I guess but somethings, especially the core beliefs will never change.

I forgot to mention one other important reason why a child would never measure up to the grade. There is a huge difference between a kid and an adult. Maturity as I mentioned above is one thing but their mentality and physiology is very different as well.

A 14 yr old has not even grown into their bodies. They have not fully developed in all aspects. I get that there are young BB's running around thinking that they are real Shodan's. But they are not.

There is, as I have said before, more to being a Yudansha than just learning the curriculum and wearing a black piece of cloth around your waste. If your 14 years old and wear a black belt, great! But in my mind it's just a black belt worth as much as the one your can buy at Wal-mart. You are not a Yudnasha.

This might not be a popular point of view and maybe it's a little harsh but to be quite blunt, it sickens me to see 10 to 16 year old children that think they are true Yudansha. If they think they are, send them my way and I'll put them up against my Yonkyu's and Sankyu's. I don't think they will feel like real Yudnasha for long. There is no patty cake point sparring in my Dojo. In my mind a Yudansha is someone that can handle their own in real Kumite.

I'm sure I'll get some heat on this but I assume you that this is not meant to come off as threatening but more so to make my point. They just are not real BB's.

[Bulltahr]

This might not be a popular point of view and maybe it's a little harsh but to be quite blunt, it sickens me to see 10 to 16 year old children that think they are true Yudansha. If they think they are, send them my way and I'll put them up against my Yonkyu's and Sankyu's. I don't think they will feel like real Yudnasha for long. There is no patty cake point sparring in my Dojo. In my mind a Yudansha is someone that can handle their own in real Kumite.

I'm sure I'll get some heat on this but I assume you that this is not meant to come off as threatening but more so to make my point. They just are not real BB's.

I agree with you, as I think alot here do also. A ten year old may know all the syllabus etc, but without the maturity of comprehension, they really are just mimicking.

I assume the problem is that if a child starts Karate at 6 or 7 years old then they move through the grades and are sitting at 1st Kyu around 12 years of age, then what to do with them?

Even tho our style has an extra belt in the mix to slow the advancement of the young ones a bit, kids that stick with it are still sitting at 2nd and 1st kyu for quite a while waiting to turn 16 to take their shodan (Junior) grading if invited to do so. (The only difference bewteen a junior and a normal shodan grading is juniors only have 30 rds of kumite at the end instead of the normal 40).

[JR 137]

This might not be a popular point of view and maybe it's a little harsh but to be quite blunt, it sickens me to see 10 to 16 year old children that think they are true Yudansha. If they think they are, send them my way and I'll put them up against my Yonkyu's and Sankyu's. I don't think they will feel like real Yudnasha for long. There is no patty cake point sparring in my Dojo. In my mind a Yudansha is someone that can handle their own in real Kumite.

I'm sure I'll get some heat on this but I assume you that this is not meant to come off as threatening but more so to make my point. They just are not real BB's.

I agree with you, as I think alot here do also. A ten year old may know all the syllabus etc, but without the maturity of comprehension, they really are just mimicking.

I assume the problem is that if a child starts Karate at 6 or 7 years old then they move through the grades and are sitting at 1st Kyu around 12 years of age, then what to do with them?

Even tho our style has an extra belt in the mix to slow the advancement of the young ones a bit, kids that stick with it are still sitting at 2nd and 1st kyu for quite a while waiting to turn 16 to take their shodan (Junior) grading if invited to do so. (The only difference bewteen a junior and a normal shodan grading is juniors only have 30 rds of kumite at the end instead of the normal 40).

We have one junior shodan in our dojo who graded about 9 months ago. According to the syllabus, junior 1st kyus are at about advanced green belt adult level. I don't think she learned Pinan 5, Tensho, Saiha, nor Tsuki No until after junior shodan. Don't hold me to that though.

Edit - I found this...

http://www.seidokarate.co.nz/Syllabus.pdf

[Bulltahr]

We have one junior shodan in our dojo who graded about 9 months ago. According to the syllabus, junior 1st kyus are at about advanced green belt adult level. I don't think she learned Pinan 5, Tensho, Saiha, nor Tsuki No until after junior shodan. Don't hold me to that though.

Edit - I found this...

http://www.seidokarate.co.nz/Syllabus.pdf

I see that JR, interesting, I haven't been privy to a Jnr grading, only what I have heard. But I know up to 3rd Kyu for sure everyone needs to know the same syllabus......