My thoughts on Ippon Kumite

[lowereastside]

LeighSimmsMA - informative article. IMHO Ippon Kumite should only be done at the beginners level to intermediate level. Then you got to let it go or one will get stuck reacting a certain way. When I learned Karate we did Ippon Kumite and sparred - and the sparring look nothing like the kata or Ippon Kumite. Again Just my 3 cents.

[Nidan Melbourne]

Solid Post LeighSimmsMA, i liked your thoughts on performing Ippon - Gohon Kumite.

At my dojo (Goju-Ryu) we don't use that form of Kumite, however some of them look similar to our Gyakusoku Kumite and our Advanced Pre-Arranged Sparring. However our "Kamae" Position is never from 'Yoi' (Heiko Dachi, Shoulder Width Stance) it varies but both Attack + Defense are in the same stance (Usually either Sanchin Dachi, Zenkutsu Dachi, Shiko Dachi, Neko Ashi Dachi or Moto Dachi). And they incorporate: Distance, Timing, angles etc so we get to utilise them differently whilst moving.

Each of our Pre-Arranged Sparring Drills then can be done in a flow drill, as so we will continue from where ever we land and becomes more realistic because if we use correct power, speed + strength then it can become quite dangerous. But often we commence this type of additional training when our students reach 1st Kyu or above.

Ironically the Shito-Ryu Video you linked is from a school i know in Yarrawonga which is a couple of hours drive out of where I live.

[jauslong]

I've given this a lot of thought.

The unrealistic scenarios taught in karate was a primary reason why I gave it up as a kid. I came to karate to learn self-defense 25 years ago because I was tired of getting picked on by older kids. In class, we went over drills that required my attacker to very slowly present an unrealistic attack and then sit and wait for my response. Obviously, it had very little practical application at the time.

But what I came to realize is that it's a case of what "Mr. Miyagi" called "learning to walk before you fly." The drills don't resemble street fighting, just like sparring doesn't resemble street fighting, they are all proxies to build up to the real thing. (by way of example, batting practice doesn't look like a baseball game either, its still a valuable part of training in baseball though)

Also, the idea that boxers and MMA don't train in a form of one-step isn't correct. Of course they do. Boxers tend to focus more on teaching combos than most karate instruction I've seen (and I am by no means advanced in karate), but the defense-counter-attack drill has to be taught in all disciplines.

It's great to question why we do things. I always thought of karate as this timeless ancient art until I really learned the history of it and found that karate as we know it isn't as old as I had believed. People make changes, and they do so because of what they see as working or not working.

But here's the thing. What "works" for you isn't the same as what "works" for me. This may be why different styles appeal to different people, but it's also an invitation or challenge to the instructor to figure out what each student really needs. Someone who is experienced in contact sports may have less need for these drills than someone who has just learned how to make a fist and has never hit anyone in their life. Also, I think the goal is to work up to full-speed, full-contact if one is trying to learn self-defense.

I fear for the karateka who was taught how to make a fist, taught punches, counter-attacks, and defense but has never actually hit someone with their hands. They are in for a rude awakening on the street, if it ever comes to that. The drills don't teach you how to fight, they give you a vocabulary for fighting. In my opinion, sparring in some ways can be dangerous for the same reason (unless sparring in and of itself is your aim, karate as sport). The person who is gently sparring with their partner and never learning what it feels like to fight hard, is not preparing for self-defense, they are preparing for over-confidence.

The best martial arts training I ever received was from an old man in the back of his video store. In his class, if you miss your block, you catch a fist to the face. Guess what, you learn not to miss blocks. Your brain learning timing much faster when there is something at stake. At least that works for me.

Just my opinion. I'm really enjoying the discussion. In fact, I registered just to respond to this.

[LeighSimmsMA]

Hi Jauslong,

I am glad this thread finally got you to join in the conversation here at the forum!!

I think you misunderstood me when I said that boxers don't train one-step sparring. What I meant by that was that boxers literally don't train one-step sparring as per the video links in my post. They obviously train a form of one-step sparring. A form that resembles the kind of attacks they deal with and a form that responds using the defences that work in live practice. This kind of training is a very important part of a holisitic system (something you vitally pointed out).

My main problem with the type of one-steps I mentioned is that I don't think they are proxies that build up to the real thing. As the distance, timing, techniques used (enemy and defender) do not relate to either sparring or non consensual violence.

Batting practice does not resemeble a real game, but batters practice hitting the ball thrown by a baseball pitcher. They don't practice against cricket bowlers. This is my analogy to defending against "karate attacks from 10 feet away". Instead we should be defending against common acts of violence if we are training for self-defence or we should be defending against common sports based attacks when training for sparring.

We absolutely need drills that don't resemble street fighting (or sparring) but Ippon Kumite (as defined in my initial post) is not it,. I am yet to be convinced of the logical progress that can develop from Ippon Kumite (as it is widely practiced) to live drills. Nor have I come across any benefits Ippon Kumite can have, which cannot be replicated in more efficient/pragmatic forms of training.

[jauslong]

Batting practice does not resemeble a real game, but batters practice hitting the ball thrown by a baseball pitcher. They don't practice against cricket bowlers. This is my analogy to defending against "karate attacks from 10 feet away". Instead we should be defending against common acts of violence if we are training for self-defence or we should be defending against common sports based attacks when training for sparring.

I like this baseball analogy, and here I would say, maybe it's better to think of Ippon Kumite not so much as batting practice (where you rightly point out that it's still a baseball being thrown). Maybe the more accurate comparison is to say that it's akin to teeball. Which, really looks nothing like baseball at that point, and is used only for absolute beginners to get a feel for hitting a ball.

That said, I think you're saying that Ippon Kumite has no real value, while I'm saying that it has value, but is limited mostly to beginners.

While in fighting, I don't consider myself a beginner, in traditional karate I do. So, for me, it's useful in programming responses and gauging how things feel. But, I'd want to pick up the pace significantly from what we're seeing on the videos you posted. There is a certain point at which that kind of practice could have just been done in the mirror. Speed it up significantly though, and a partner really comes in handy.

Thanks for your thoughts on this. For someone who is still perfecting the basic movements, what would you recommend instead to learn the timing, distance and technique applicable to a live encounter? If there is something better out there, I'm all for it!

[sensei8]

You know, whatever the drill might be from whatever style of the MA, those drills are nothing but tools; devised to accustom a practitioner in familiarity of that styles teachings as well as its techniques. Can't walk, unless one slowly works up to that goal in mind.

While Shindokan utilizes all well known Kumite drills, just as those described in this thread, however, we add something to our entire curriculum/syllabus and the like that not many styles of the MA do, and we incorporate it from day one, and that is...resistant drill training.

As we're more than aware that these Kumite drills and the like, are also designed with the students safety. Therefore, our resistant drill training has to be taught, but it must be taught is such a way that not one student is intentionally injured, or worse.

Students are weaned slowly into the full force of the resistant drill training, as to not putting the cart before the horse, albeit, this isn't done ever in a stalled manner. Students from day one are resisted at every turn, and in ever way; the more a student is made to feel uncertain, and taught to figure for themselves an effective way to overcome everything, because after all, ones attacker, isn't the only thing to resist and overcome.

Our Kumite, especially our Jiyu, in the manner of the way our students are taught, is to cast away those things that they're not sure of. Our former Kancho, Greg Forsythe, and I were considered by our Dai-Soke, as well as the entire Student Body, to have evolved, and away from what Dai-Soke taught us...and that was whenever the two of us engaged in any form of Kumite, especially in Jiyu, we'd go at each other with a terrible resolve...no kid gloves...the gloves were off. This is how we two were, and this is what we wanted for the entire Student Body; Dai-Soke approved of our methods in this regards.

No tools, no drills, well, then why in the world learn/do it, whatever it is, at all?!?! Motions are necessary; they edify!!

[pers]

I only watched the shotokan clip as it is the only one I practiced in and know about , that clip is kihon ippon kumite which means basic one attack sparring .

If you watch jiyu ippon kumite which is semi free one attack sparring then you should see a flowing movement similar to free fighting .

bearing in mind these are training drills aimed at teaching students at different levels of their development .

there is also another imporatnt element to include and that is learning strategy and tactics on how to gain adnatage to deliver in attack and in defence and it starts from kihon ippon to jiyu ippon .