Too much bunkai?

[catlike]

Not really a moan, but an observation I think I'd like a little 'me too' or 'no, that's odd' reassurance. I'm a red belt (pretty much the lowest) in our club, lots of kids and a few adults (say 6 regulars), mostly higher belts.

We do a lot of real-world self defence stuff. Sensei starts by putting together 2 or 3 moves, we do in a line for a couple minutes. Then Senpai joins him, generally makes an 'ouch' noise, then we break up into pairs and try it.

This means I don't really know the correct technique as it's observed during kata. We don't spend a great deal of time learning kata but I've been told not to follow youtube vids on the 'net, in case we do the moves differently.

I embrace kata, I love the power and focus you need to put into it to do it right, but I think I'm being shuffled down a path of bunkai.

Perhaps Sensei notices I'm interested in kata and hence need no encouragement, but my real-world application is terrible so the focus on bunkai etc. I feel like I'm the one asking most questions and making the biggest efforts when I know what I should be doing.

[Zaine]

From my perspective I think that your Sensei sees your effort. If you're the one asking all the questions, perhaps your Sensei finds it better to focus more on the students who are self-advocating as well as you are. Furthermore, knowing what you should be doing and being able to do it aren't the same. If, in fact, real-world application is where you feel weakest, then the bunkai is a good thing, and you should be doing a lot.

That being said, talk to your Sensei. Tell them what you want to know, and your end goals as far as kata and bunkai are concerned. It's entirely possible that it has not crossed your Sensei's mind to mention that, and it is also possible that you're one of only a few interested in that particular area. Showing this interest to your Sensei would help you immensely. I've never met a teacher, MA or otherwise, who wasn't enthusiastic about their students furthering their own journeys.

At the end of the day, it's best to approach your Sensei. Be bold about how you learn. We all learn differently, and your Sensei knows that. Give them the opportunity to teach you in a way that will best facilitate your growth.

[Wastelander]

If your Sensei has seen that you struggle with applying the moves of the kata, then it makes perfect sense that he or she would make you focus on precisely that. If you avoid the things you are bad at, in favor of the things you are good at, you'll never get better, and you'll eventually get bored.

Now, any time you are concerned about the way your training is progressing, you should talk to your instructor! If you want to get in more practice on just the kata movements, then tell them! That doesn't mean the bunkai will go away, of course

[sensei8]

Imho, one can't ever have too much Bunkai; it's the not enough that would cause me concern!! Train hard and train well!!

Edited March 12, 2017 by sensei8

[Safroot]

Wish I have too much Bunkai like you ! I hardly have any

[MatsuShinshii]

Not really a moan, but an observation I think I'd like a little 'me too' or 'no, that's odd' reassurance. I'm a red belt (pretty much the lowest) in our club, lots of kids and a few adults (say 6 regulars), mostly higher belts.

We do a lot of real-world self defence stuff. Sensei starts by putting together 2 or 3 moves, we do in a line for a couple minutes. Then Senpai joins him, generally makes an 'ouch' noise, then we break up into pairs and try it.

This means I don't really know the correct technique as it's observed during kata. We don't spend a great deal of time learning kata but I've been told not to follow youtube vids on the 'net, in case we do the moves differently.

I embrace kata, I love the power and focus you need to put into it to do it right, but I think I'm being shuffled down a path of bunkai.

Perhaps Sensei notices I'm interested in kata and hence need no encouragement, but my real-world application is terrible so the focus on bunkai etc. I feel like I'm the one asking most questions and making the biggest efforts when I know what I should be doing.

Sounds like you have a good teacher. Not to many dojo train in Bunkai these days and if they do it is not entirely accurate to what the kata actually represents but rather a mixture of techniques from different arts (Ju Jutsu, Judo, Etc.) that do not fit.

If he is teaching you the Bunkai to your Kata this is a good thing. The number one complaint students have is they do not understand why they are learning Kata in the first place.

Sounds like you have an old school teacher that is teaching you the Bunkai. You have a leg up on most because you will have a deep understanding of your Kata.

Count yourself lucky.

[Safroot]

If he is teaching you the Bunkai to your Kata this is a good thing. The number one complaint students have is they do not understand why they are learning Kata in the first place.

Sounds like you have an old school teacher that is teaching you the Bunkai. You have a leg up on most because you will have a deep understanding of your Kata.

Count yourself lucky.

I totally agree as this is my main complain regarding the kata

[catlike]

Honestly, I do count myself lucky. Able bodied, enough money to spend on a hobby like this, mentally able to connect with it (and you guys, the internet is a pretty awesome thing!)

I really appreciate being able to see how the techniques are applied. But when you show the application, naturally, the finer points of the movement become something quite different. Let me explain an example from last night. We did Kihon Kata for the benefit of the white belt.

Now, steps 9 and 17 are 270 degree turns with a Gedan Barai. Last night we ran through the kata once, then explored this turn, as a throw. So your assailant would get grabbed with both hands and taken down. The hand movements in the kata are not 'grabbing', your body weight and centre is designed only for yourself at that moment, so obviously it's quite different when you chuck someone about a bit! We did it, it was fun and I ended up on the deck a few times yes!

But then we just whistled through the kata once more and I couldn't help feeling the white belt chap was even more unsure about hand position in that movement.

I do talk to my Sensei, he's really approachable and open and I know it's difficult getting a lesson across to so many different students, who are all at different stages. I'm not moaning, I think I'm just curious to see if this 'kata way' / 'real world way' thing exists everywhere.

[Kusotare]

This thread and perhaps the OP’s point in general is what seem to be giving Karate a bad reputation in the world of martial art imo.

I truly believe that most instructors teach kata and bunkai with all good intentions but in reality what they end up transmitting is quite poor, and wouldn’t work from both a kata or real world perspective. It’s the reverse of being the sum of its parts – as it destroys both.

The problem, as I see it comes when you take an Eastern approach to teaching (namely a Kata based pedagogy), and try to Westernise it – because it feels familiar and therefore more comfortable.

This seems to have happened with Kata and the west’s insatiable demand to attach ‘bunkai’ to every part of it. What this gives rise to imo is bunkai for the sake of bunkai – when in fact there is no need.

Whilst I would agree that there is value in understanding potential applications (within reason), I think if you look too far beyond the basic movement of the kata, there is a risk you overlook the more important aspects to the kata’s raison d’être. To this extent I believe ones overriding priority should be to learn the kata well from a performance perspective (ie solo).

An example would be Naihanchi kata (from a Wado perspective anyway). The primary reason this is trained is to develop internal core strength and explosive energy using short range techniques. The best way to do this is to repetitively and correctly practice the kata in its solo form.

The outputs from this kata practice can then be honed against a partner as a separate exercise – but the kata is what gets you to that point in the first place.

If you shortcut the kata and jump straight to the application your body will not have become conditioned enough / have the core attributes ready to use.

First embrace the Kata, then diverge from the kata and lastly discard the kata.

K.

[wildbourgman]

Kusotare, I think I'm going to have to disagree with must of your comments even though I get where your coming from and I also may have misunderstood you on some points.

My initial training was basically the way you discuss it, but I've come to believe that bunkai came first. There is no reason for kata unless you need a fight sequence using bunkai to remember and polish up full speed without either having or hurting a partner. I don't think kata came before fighting, but as a result of it because someone needed to get better. How many people do you see that can perform the perfect kata like an explosive dance, but when it comes to fighting or kumite they are severely lacking and can't "come out of the dance" ?

Also I see that more instructors just don't teach bunkai at all and that's the bigger problem. I also don't mind taking a western approach and using every single move like it actually means something (even intro salutations). When I say westernizing I might mean something different than you. I'll state later in my comments to catlike more to that point. As for as "insatiable demand to attach ‘bunkai’ to every part of it" why not, why waste any move? Why not make every move a teachable moment if you can? I personally don't believe martial arts is about inefficient movement, I think it's just the opposite. I was taught from a Japanese JKA kata champion that one of the moves in a kata he was teaching was "just for show". That's not good, I paid good money to attend that camp and my cash was not for show. So yes I like to attach bunkai to every part than it can be attached to, even bowing if possible.

Now to catlikes concerns, I understand that his Sensei might not want him to go beyond what he's teaching at this time for bunkai to associate to certain moves on certain kata. His curriculum and your skill set might dictate what he thinks you need. My instructor explains that there can be many interpretations to the same move depending on level of experience, skill, athleticism, and the situations you come across in a real fight. One move might look like a block to a junior karate-ka, but later the same move might be a throw to a more advance person. Also different styles will have variations on the same move due to the distance that the particular style fights at for instance. I have trained in Shotokan and Shorin Ryu many of the katas are very similar but the bunkai that I have been taught can be somewhat to very different between the two.

As for as my philosophy, I take what works for me, for my body type, my age, the possible fight sequences I could picture myself needing to practice because of my normal daily surroundings. If there's a move where an Okinawan master of yester-year taught was to protect against being hit with a Samurai sword and then Ian Abernathy said his variation on that same move would protect against a drunk in line at a football game bathroom, I'm sorry Bushi Matsumura, I'm going with Ian on this one.