There is both an Okinawan and Japanese style of Goju Ryu?

[Prototype]

Well, Funkakoshi banned "free sparring" for all students (only 1 step and 3 step sparring was allowed). If that's not softening an art, I don't know what is.

The one good contribution was his personal refinements of the katas. I greatly appreciate the Shotokan Katas over Okinawas, especially over Shito Ryus shaking body movements.

In ITF we have a sine wave/knee spring, which was introduced in the 80s to further separate TaeKwon-Do from Karate. Shotokan katas are the purest to me, with proper hip rotation and nothing fancy in between.

[JR 137]

Well, Funkakoshi banned "free sparring" for all students (only 1 step and 3 step sparring was allowed). If that's not softening an art, I don't know what is.

The one good contribution was his personal refinements of the katas. I greatly appreciate the Shotokan Katas over Okinawas, especially over Shito Ryus shaking body movements.

In ITF we have a sine wave/knee spring, which was introduced in the 80s to further separate TaeKwon-Do from Karate. Shotokan katas are the purest to me, with proper hip rotation and nothing fancy in between.

I haven't heard his banning it before. On the surface it sounds like softening it up, but it doesn't mean that was why and if it did indeed soften up the art HE taught.

There's allegedly a number of teachers in Okinawa and Okinawans abroad who don't do much free sparring. They do however do very hard contact exchange drills (for lack of a better phrase). Attacker attacks, defender responds using what he/she has been taught. It's not a drill like left hand low block into stance followed by a stepping straight punch with the reverse hand chambered like is typically seen, and criticized for being unrealistic. In the drills I'm referring to, if the defender doesn't defend properly, he/she'll get hit pretty hard.

Perhaps Funakoshi thought free sparring turned self defense into dojo fighting that doesn't resemble a true physical altercation. There typically isn't very much if any dancing around, throwing jabs and kicks to set your opponent up for the KO in real fights.

A lot of karate dojos allegedly didn't do free sparring. This was a big reason why Oyama started Oyama dojo (later called Kyokushin). Funakoshi certainly wasn't the only one not free sparring if a lot of students were leaving other dojos (including Okinawan dojos) to train in Kyokushin.

I'm not making excuses for the way Shotokan, or really anything else, is currently being taught. It's easy to bash Shotokan and accuse Funakoshi of watering it down. It's almost fashionable to do so. Truth is, none of us were there to see it through his development. Every teacher teaches differently, even within an organization. If no free sparring is a problem, it's a teacher problem and not a Shotokan problem IMO. There's plenty of Shotokan dojos doing hard non-tournament sparring.

[Prototype]

It was because Gishin Funakoshi was against any contact. A Karateka was to exercise control. His son Gigo, however, had free sparring in the dojo when his father was not present:)

[sensei8]

It was because Gishin Funakoshi was against any contact. A Karateka was to exercise control. His son Gigo, however, had free sparring in the dojo when his father was not present:)

If I can arrest my technique(s) just millimeters from said target, at will, imagine just what I can do if I choose to not arrest my technique(s); this is Karate-do!! Some would call that mindset ineffective mercy, whereas I call it controlled, and I choose that time, not my attacker!!

[Nidan Melbourne]

My dojo has it's lineage through Yamaguchi Sensei (Goju-Kai). We are slightly varied in terms of Kata, we added the taikyoku kata (Taikyoku Jodan, Chudan, Gedan, Kake and Mawashi Ichi) prior to the Gekesai Series.

In relation to stances, it is noticeable by viewing their Shiko Dachi. As the Japanese tend to be lower than the Okinawan.

However in my eyes Goju-Kai is not watered down, as students train just as hard as those who are from strictly okinawan lineages.

I have trained in several schools that teach Goju-Ryu that is only taught from a Okinawan Lineage. And their training was similar to what i regularly do. The only difference in training was either the terminology or minor changes in how to perform techniques.

Each dojo irregardless of what they particularly teach, will offer what is useful for their needs. At my dojo even though we do jiyu kumite, we still do kakie and about a dozen or so things that you would only "typically" find at an okinawan dojo.

[sensei8]

My dojo has it's lineage through Yamaguchi Sensei (Goju-Kai). We are slightly varied in terms of Kata, we added the taikyoku kata (Taikyoku Jodan, Chudan, Gedan, Kake and Mawashi Ichi) prior to the Gekesai Series.

In relation to stances, it is noticeable by viewing their Shiko Dachi. As the Japanese tend to be lower than the Okinawan.

However in my eyes Goju-Kai is not watered down, as students train just as hard as those who are from strictly okinawan lineages.

I have trained in several schools that teach Goju-Ryu that is only taught from a Okinawan Lineage. And their training was similar to what i regularly do. The only difference in training was either the terminology or minor changes in how to perform techniques.

Each dojo irregardless of what they particularly teach, will offer what is useful for their needs. At my dojo even though we do jiyu kumite, we still do kakie and about a dozen or so things that you would only "typically" find at an okinawan dojo.

To the bold type above...

The underlined, that right there, is forgotten in quite a lot of discussions whenever the discussions are centered around the MA. Shindokan fulfills my needs, for the most part, and that's why I've crossed trained in the MA for as long as I can remember.

Whatever the MA might be, and I see value in it, and I believe that my MA betterment and needs are meet, than, how can I be told that whatever style I'm training in is wrong?!?

Aren't our MA journey ours, and ours alone, until we shed our mortal coil??

 

[Wastelander]

Goju-Ryu does, indeed, have both a Japanese version and an Okinawan version, and yes, Gunnar Nelson did train in Goju-Kai, the Japanese style of Goju-Ryu. Different instructors will approach their styles differently, though, so it's hard to say that a style is watered down, when instructors within a given style can vary widely in their methods, from hardcore to weak. Even within my organization (which teaches Okinawan Shorin-Ryu), we have instructors who teach knockdown kumite, and instructors who ban sparring/contact, and everything in between. These methods aren't dictated by the style or organization, and that is true for the majority of karate styles out there.

Now, as far as how to know in advance what you are getting, the answer is quite simple; ask and watch. I don't understand why people have the desire to know all there is to know about a school based on never having spoken with the instructor or visited to watch classes. You will never know if the school is a good fit if you avoid it. Go to the school, talk to the instructor about what you are looking for and what they do, and watch some classes--both the beginning classes you would be in, and the advanced classes to see where they go with it. Watch more than one of each class, as well, because the instructor's focus will likely shift from class to class, and you shouldn't expect what you see in one class to be what is done in every single class. Once you've done these things, you'll be able to form an educated opinion on the school. Not before, based on what other people say abou the style they teach. All that will get you are generalizations that may or may not be true of a given school.

[MatsuShinshii]

I'm not an expert on Funakoshi and Shotokan. I've read his autobiography and a few other things by and about him. Everyone has an opinion.

What I gather is that he made changes in order to get karate accepted by the Japanese government so it could be taught in the school system. Obviously things needed to be "watered down" for kids, but not for adults. The biggest change was probably the elimination of joint locks, chokes and throws. This IMO was most likely due to making karate a distinctly different art than Judo, which had been accepted by the Japanese government. If Funakoshi was pushing an art that had a lot of these things in it, the government would most likely say karate and judo were too similar and pass on karate being included in the curriculum. That's not to say it wasn't taught outside the school system.

Everything changes. With change, there's almost always good and bad. I've read some stuff from Funakoshi's earliest students who became probably the first generation of Shotokan teachers. Teachers who taught at the college level were reportedly very harsh - they did a lot of body conditioning (not cardio, but "toughening up") and full contact sparring. Students typically didn't make it through the first half hour. If they left during the first class, they were never allowed to come back; but they weren't looked down on. If they left after the first class, they weren't allowed back, but they were also ridiculed as they were leaving and later scorned by members of the club. I wish I could remember the source of that information; he is a highly regarded teacher who was talking about back when he started vs how he teaches today.

It's changed in a good way. It's not an exclusive club where you have to prove you're tough enough to be included. People get out of it what they put into it.

Bringing this full circle, there's dojos out there for everyone the n just about every style. Some retain those harsh training methods, some have zero contact, and everything in between. Karate and martial arts as a whole has softened up a bit. But every dojo is different. There are quite a few Shotokan dojos that are full contact. Compared to all of Shotokan I'd guess they're in the minority, but that doesn't mean they're nonexistent.

I'd characterize Japanese Goju I've seen as somewhere between Okinawan Goju and Kyokushin. I'm pretty sure not every single Goju Kai dojo is like that.

JR137 and Prototype,

You are both right.

Prototype, Funakoshi did water down the art in that he removed the combative, "dangerous" applications of the art. Pretty much as you said the grappling (Tegumi) was removed, but Tuidi and Kyusho were also removed. In order to fit it in with other Japanese arts it was changed to a "Do" art like Judo, Aikido, Kendo, Etc. more or less the "Jutsu" or combative methods were removed.

However JR137 is correct as well in that Japanese Karate at the college level was barbaric and highly combative. I have read reports of students dying during practice.

It really depends on what your definition of "watered down" is. If you mean that the true intent of the art was removed and Japanese ideals were injected, then Prototype is absolutely correct in his assertion.

If you look at an art in terms of it's effectiveness to maim or kill then JR137 is correct in his assertion.

I will interject that any martial art is effective in that if you strike someone with enough force in the right place and with consistency, your opponent will in fact die.

However Prototype is correct in saying that Japanese Karate is not the same as Okinawan Karate.

However it depends on what you get out of it. I took Nisei Goju Ryu and found it effective. It stayed along the lines of Okinawan Goju Ryu with some differences but IMHO is a valid art and I would not call it watered down. Not sure if this is the same as Goju Kai but is of Gogen lineage so I would assume it is.

[cheesefrysamurai]

There are differences between japanaese and okinawan but Japanese is not watered down. That's silly. They are slightly different. Different emphasis but much depends on the instructor.

Search in Google - you'll see it listed.