Is it normal ?

[sensei8]

I'm the worse one to speak on this subject because I've little to no tolerances about a many aspects surrounding the MA, namely, Karate-do.

Over the many years that I've been a KF member, I've addressed the 3 K's of Karate: Kihon, Kata, and Kumite!! Either of these tools are inherently important to the betterment of a Karateka, without any ambiguity!!

I've spoken in tones of a three legged chair missing one of it's legs, and that same chair being unstable, and so on and so forth.

What I found that helped me to get through the difficult times, and there's been more than my share, and to not appreciate one or all of the 3 K's, is the fault lies within me, the practitioner, often times, it's difficult to increase ones betterment. Many in the MA community see no value arriving from Kata, and their arguments are just that, imho, just arguments with no sound and viable basis, however, this can be also said for MAists as myself as to being a Kata proponent, stuck in the mud and in neutral as to the methodologies/ideologies of yesteryear.

How to break the dullness about Kata?? How to break the stigma of Kata?? How to make a Kata breakthrough?? How to train outside of the box?? How??

One has to appreciate what possibilities exist through Kata. Without that appreciation, Kata will remain without value. Albeit, to appreciate Kata, one must first start to understand Kata. Not from its historical point of view, which is important, but that's for another time and conversation, but from its applicable possibilities, and those possibilities can only be seen is through the various avenues of Bunkai.

That which can't be seen with the naked eye, can be realized, and seen through the willingness of being honest with oneself. Kata isn't easy...it's not suppose to be easy!! Kihon isn't easy...it's not suppose to be easy!! Kumite isn't easy...it's not suppose to be easy!! After all, what's the reward if it's easy?!

Those Aha moments are there for the taking, but they'll not come if one already despises Kata to the very core of its existence, and to the core of their own being. Kata is an expression, but the expressionless can't experience both appreciation and expression for the beauty of Kata.

You have to want it...Kata, that is...first...before that one leg of the 3 K's can be trained in. Bunkai...Oyo Bunkai...that Oyo is that beauty at the core of Kata. One makes Kata boring, imho!! One makes Kata useless, imho!! One makes Kata hard, imho!!

Remembering the embusen by itself is enough to make one not like Kata; there's a lot to remember, that's for sure. There's a lot of Kata in ones style, and when one looks at a Kata syllabus, wow, that's a lot to take in, and then Kata becomes overwhelming. "I got to learn ALL OF THAT?!"

The MA isn't a crash course in anything, particularly when it comes to the 3 K's!! Things will come when they come, and patience, both of the student as well as the instructor, can become an futile exercise.

I've had to, from time to time, had to push through those times of mundane and long work of any 3 K aspects. Those plateaus can be quite disheartening on ones MA journey.

Find that one thing, just that one thing positive about Kata, and expand upon it. If you can do just that, for now, then it's possible to see Kata as that valued entity of Karate-dos 3 K's!!

Don't give up on Kata, please!! In conclusion, it's your MA journey, and while I might not agree with your decision, I will respect it, and you!! I've been where you are...often, and I believe that that's natural. That joy leaves, if only for a blink of an eye, but that joy quickly returns once one has pushed through the difficulties felt.

What you're feeling is normal!!

[Safroot]

Hi Safroot,

Hello from another Aussie - if you're ever down Canberra way, drop me a line and you'd be welcome to visit my dojo.

As for kata, I personally really enjoy it. However, is the exploration, analysis and attempt to understand it that I enjoy particularly, rather than the practise of the solo repetitions.

Kata is a mmemoric template for response that allows you to practise the applications in a kata when in your own.

I think enjoyment of kata is directly related to understanding. I personally don't see the kata as a single strain of self defence techniques, but rather a multitude of short sequences designed to teach fundamental skills which can be then brought together to form something that is collectively greater - kata.

Good luck on your journey with kata!

P.s. plenty of styles that also don't use kata, too.

Hi RGCKarate, thanks for the invitation & sure I will come to visit your dojo when I visit Canberra & thank you for your detailed reply. I guess understanding / breaking down the kata is my main problem & will try to work on it

[Safroot]

I'm the worse one to speak on this subject because I've little to no tolerances about a many aspects surrounding the MA, namely, Karate-do.

Over the many years that I've been a KF member, I've addressed the 3 K's of Karate: Kihon, Kata, and Kumite!! Either of these tools are inherently important to the betterment of a Karateka, without any ambiguity!!

I've spoken in tones of a three legged chair missing one of it's legs, and that same chair being unstable, and so on and so forth.

What I found that helped me to get through the difficult times, and there's been more than my share, and to not appreciate one or all of the 3 K's, is the fault lies within me, the practitioner, often times, it's difficult to increase ones betterment. Many in the MA community see no value arriving from Kata, and their arguments are just that, imho, just arguments with no sound and viable basis, however, this can be also said for MAists as myself as to being a Kata proponent, stuck in the mud and in neutral as to the methodologies/ideologies of yesteryear.

How to break the dullness about Kata?? How to break the stigma of Kata?? How to make a Kata breakthrough?? How to train outside of the box?? How??

One has to appreciate what possibilities exist through Kata. Without that appreciation, Kata will remain without value. Albeit, to appreciate Kata, one must first start to understand Kata. Not from its historical point of view, which is important, but that's for another time and conversation, but from its applicable possibilities, and those possibilities can only be seen is through the various avenues of Bunkai.

That which can't be seen with the naked eye, can be realized, and seen through the willingness of being honest with oneself. Kata isn't easy...it's not suppose to be easy!! Kihon isn't easy...it's not suppose to be easy!! Kumite isn't easy...it's not suppose to be easy!! After all, what's the reward if it's easy?!

Those Aha moments are there for the taking, but they'll not come if one already despises Kata to the very core of its existence, and to the core of their own being. Kata is an expression, but the expressionless can't experience both appreciation and expression for the beauty of Kata.

You have to want it...Kata, that is...first...before that one leg of the 3 K's can be trained in. Bunkai...Oyo Bunkai...that Oyo is that beauty at the core of Kata. One makes Kata boring, imho!! One makes Kata useless, imho!! One makes Kata hard, imho!!

Remembering the embusen by itself is enough to make one not like Kata; there's a lot to remember, that's for sure. There's a lot of Kata in ones style, and when one looks at a Kata syllabus, wow, that's a lot to take in, and then Kata becomes overwhelming. "I got to learn ALL OF THAT?!"

The MA isn't a crash course in anything, particularly when it comes to the 3 K's!! Things will come when they come, and patience, both of the student as well as the instructor, can become an futile exercise.

I've had to, from time to time, had to push through those times of mundane and long work of any 3 K aspects. Those plateaus can be quite disheartening on ones MA journey.

Find that one thing, just that one thing positive about Kata, and expand upon it. If you can do just that, for now, then it's possible to see Kata as that valued entity of Karate-dos 3 K's!!

Don't give up on Kata, please!! In conclusion, it's your MA journey, and while I might not agree with your decision, I will respect it, and you!! I've been where you are...often, and I believe that that's natural. That joy leaves, if only for a blink of an eye, but that joy quickly returns once one has pushed through the difficulties felt.

What you're feeling is normal!!

What a solid post ! Thanks so much sensei8. I don't want to give up on kata for sure but at the same time wanna like it so I can improve & get the best out of it

[strangepair03]

When I was younger, till my mid teens I hated kata!!! I would have to buckle down to make it thru kata so I could fight at the end of class. From around my mid/late teens to now, I'm in my 40's, it is the polar opposite!!!! I love kata, bunkai, tearing the individual kata down to small pieces and playing with different applications. The more I repeat them the more I want to get to the smallest details.

Perhaps you will find that at some point in the future you will actually come to love them too.

All the best in your journey!

[Safroot]

When I was younger, till my mid teens I hated kata!!! I would have to buckle down to make it thru kata so I could fight at the end of class. From around my mid/late teens to now, I'm in my 40's, it is the polar opposite!!!! I love kata, bunkai, tearing the individual kata down to small pieces and playing with different applications. The more I repeat them the more I want to get to the smallest details.

Perhaps you will find that at some point in the future you will actually come to love them too.

All the best in your journey!

That gives me hope thanks strangepair03

[strangepair03]

Not a problem, remember to take the time to enjoy our training too. Even the stuff you don't care for!!

[JR 137]

I understand where you're coming from, Safroot. Kyokushin's practical use of kata is minimal. Quite a few who left Kyokushin and started their own organizations, such as Ninomiya with Enshin karate, Shigeru Oyama (no relation to Mas Oyama) with Oyama karate, and Ashihara with Ashihara karate did away with just about all the traditional kata, and inserted their own "fighting kata" which comparatively speaking look like shadow kickboxing.

Oyama reportedly didn't teach bunkai, and it's evident in his students and their students. Kata was and is performed to teach basics and movement mechanics, and for grading. It's in stark contrast to the people mentioned above.

Honestly, there's no wrong nor right way. It depends on your outlook/philosophy of defending yourself/fighting. My only realistic complaint about Seido Juku (my current system) is that bunkai isn't outright taught that I see, especially at kyu levels. Nakamura (our founder, who was one of Oyama's top students) has developed "self defenses" which are broken down in beginner, intermediate, and advanced stages. Funny thing is, when I look at them, I see a ton of stuff from kata. More specifically, kata that we do. The beginner ones not so much, but definitely the intermediate ones (where I am in my training), and the advanced ones that I've seen appear more so. We also do "kihon kumite" that has elements of kata. To the untrained eye, you'd miss it. There's someone who's seen a lot of different bunkai by different people, it's not so subtle. Pretty sure none of that is a coincidence, even though it really isn't discussed as such.

I know, I'm side tracking here.

If you're really interested in bunkai, the best advice I have is look into Okinawan schools - Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Isshin Ryu, etc. I'm stereotyping here, but I've found the Japanese schools are less bunkai based and more kickboxing-ish compared to Okinawan schools.

Without bunkai, kata more or less becomes a glorified dance routine for a lot of people.

All IMO. I'm sure many will disagree.

[Safroot]

I understand where you're coming from, Safroot. Kyokushin's practical use of kata is minimal. Quite a few who left Kyokushin and started their own organizations, such as Ninomiya with Enshin karate, Shigeru Oyama (no relation to Mas Oyama) with Oyama karate, and Ashihara with Ashihara karate did away with just about all the traditional kata, and inserted their own "fighting kata" which comparatively speaking look like shadow kickboxing.

Oyama reportedly didn't teach bunkai, and it's evident in his students and their students. Kata was and is performed to teach basics and movement mechanics, and for grading. It's in stark contrast to the people mentioned above.

Honestly, there's no wrong nor right way. It depends on your outlook/philosophy of defending yourself/fighting. My only realistic complaint about Seido Juku (my current system) is that bunkai isn't outright taught that I see, especially at kyu levels. Nakamura (our founder, who was one of Oyama's top students) has developed "self defenses" which are broken down in beginner, intermediate, and advanced stages. Funny thing is, when I look at them, I see a ton of stuff from kata. More specifically, kata that we do. The beginner ones not so much, but definitely the intermediate ones (where I am in my training), and the advanced ones that I've seen appear more so. We also do "kihon kumite" that has elements of kata. To the untrained eye, you'd miss it. There's someone who's seen a lot of different bunkai by different people, it's not so subtle. Pretty sure none of that is a coincidence, even though it really isn't discussed as such.

I know, I'm side tracking here.

If you're really interested in bunkai, the best advice I have is look into Okinawan schools - Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Isshin Ryu, etc. I'm stereotyping here, but I've found the Japanese schools are less bunkai based and more kickboxing-ish compared to Okinawan schools.

Without bunkai, kata more or less becomes a glorified dance routine for a lot of people.

All IMO. I'm sure many will disagree.

It seems like a kyokushin problem ?! Do anyone have the same problem with Kata in any other style ?!

[Safroot]

Without bunkai, kata more or less becomes a glorified dance routine for a lot of people

That's describes what I feel to a great extent, I would only add that it's very hard to remember

[JR 137]

I don't think it's strictly a Kyokushin issue. I'd imagine pure sport karate styles where the emphasis is on how kata looks don't do much, if any realistic bunkai.

As far as them being hard to remember, everyone's different. I had a very tough time learning/remembering taikyoku 1. After that, most of them were pretty easy to remember. I just looked at it as substituting different movements on the same or similar pattern. Most often the pattern (embussen) is an I or an upside down or right side up T; you may go off at 45 degree angles, but most follow that pattern until you get to black belt level stuff. And even those tend to follow that as well. At least the ones practiced in Kyokushin do. Think about it this way...

Taikyoku 1-3 and Pinan 1 &2 - I

Pinan 3-5 Upside down T

Sanchin - l

Gekisai Dai - Upside down T

Yantsu- Upside down T

Saiha- T

Tensho - l

Tsuki No - Not sure as I haven't learned it yet, but appears to be an upside down T

When I learn a new kata, the first thing I think of is the pattern, then substuting movements within it. I get mixed up now and then by doing movements from a different kata, but everyone does. My CI and I were going through Pinan 2 one night, and after the nukite on the way up the middle, he went right into Pinan 3 by doing the spin and tetsui into kiba dachi. He started laughing after the next 2-3 counts and we started over again. He's a 7th dan with about 45+ years experience. If he's going to make that mistake from time to time, everyone else is too IMO.