Is it for the Art or for Money ?

[Alan Armstrong]

Thank you MatsuShinshii.

I teach martial arts twice a week by invitation in a MMA centre. I don't belong to any association and I don't wear or give out belt rankings.

I have about 18 years combined Dojo experience, over a 50 year period. Practiced in many disciplines for the fun and interest mostly.

Never tried to make money from martial arts just something that I've always been connected with through the good times and the bad.

Have seen the McDojos over the years, I guess who am I to say what they do is wrong, most might want to gripe about my methods as well.

[Safroot]

I figured this would not be translated correctly. I should have qualified these statements.

Yes it is good for you to train with more qualified students, even black belts. However the curriculum is different between the ranks.

Point in fact - you would not teach a Hachikyu Kusanku as their first Kata. There is a natural flow to the learning process and it exists for a reason.

Having made this statement I need to further explain - a Mudansha student first learns a beginner Kata to learn how to move, transition and how to generate power. These techniques are often times simpler to pick up.

If you were to drop a student right into a black belt class they would not be able to defend themselves during Kumite and they would not benefit from learning an advanced Kata before the basics have been taught.

Yes it benefits the student to train with higher ranks and this is common place once they have been acclimated. We bring in higher ranks to work with lower ranks and give them pointers and help them progress. However I do not have Shechikyu training with Shodan, Nidan or Sandan students.

To further my point you would not force a Shodan to back track every class to practice basic Kata, Kihon. Yes it is always good to go back to the basics and we do this often but I do not force my black belts to take beginners classes nor train at their level. It serves no purpose.

McDojo's throw all ranks onto the floor and the training can not be said to be targeted to the specific rank. It slows down progress and this is by design. If you train longer and it takes you longer to learn the requirements for a given rank, the instructor benefits and the student does not. We target our students training to benefit them.

I hope this clarify's my statement.

Thanks for clarification MatsuShinshii but I still feel like that way of mixed rank training is not the best for beginners like myself but that's the case in all dojos I have contacted or been to. may be if they can split the class at one stage to work on the basic skills of the beginners instead of asking to try to do your best to do combinations that you will never be able to do & will feel lost in the class. I am not that experienced in MA but that was my feeling during my previous training period.

[Safroot]

Hpefully I like the feel of the new dojo , I am dying to go back to training

Hi Safroot,

Im Chris. I am dealing with finding a good dojo right now as well.. unfortunately cost has to be a consideration.

Hi Chris, It's always good to find someone in the same boat. My previous Dojo was never a Macdojo although I don't like some issues about it but now I have moved far away from it to a rapidly growing area in Sydney where you can find lots of Macdojos in all MA trying to make good money from the growing population. I will try one that doesn't look dodgy & the instructor there was the instructor in my old Dojo years ago before moving here.

That dojo is recognised by: Australian Kyokushin Federation / Kyokushin World Federation / Kyokushin World Union, so hopefuly they are good.

[Safroot]

The sooner that student figures that out, the better for their MA journey. Many times, no one tells them that they're doing it all wrong

That's exactly my question, if you are rookie like myself & know nothing about the art, How can you figure out if your technique is wrong & the instructor is ignoring that fact for money or if you are on the right track of MA training ?

One way is to contact the Hombu of said governing body. Find out where the closest dojo that's under their umbrella, and visit with that dojo's CI. But first, ask the Hombu to contact that CI for you, in order for you to have a evaluation, to see if you're on track. We do this all of the time!!

If you can, go to the Hombu itself!! Cut the middle man out entirely; right from the horse's mouth!!

Now, if the CI is recognized by the Hombu in a favorable way, then tread softly when you speak to them with your concerns, but still speak to them...keep it short...or you'll be shown the door quickly. If, after speaking with the Hombu, and you're lucky enough to get their attention, they will send a Senior Dan to investigate and to speak with that CI. The Hombu will not want some CI casting any bad light onto the Hombu as well as the brand/style. The Hombu will try to help your CI to see the errors of his way, and help him to reach a solution that will benefit everyone!!

If the Hombu ignores you. Than quit asap!! Go somewhere else!! Your gut feelings...trust them...you believe that you're not receiving the highest quality of instructions...then be proactive and help yourself...you owe that to your MA journey!!

Hang in there!!

Thanks for the advice sensei8.

The new dojo I found is recognised by: Australian Kyokushin Federation / Kyokushin World Federation / Kyokushin World Union and even listed on the AKF website, does that mean it's a good Dojo or not necessarily ?!

[sensei8]

The sooner that student figures that out, the better for their MA journey. Many times, no one tells them that they're doing it all wrong

That's exactly my question, if you are rookie like myself & know nothing about the art, How can you figure out if your technique is wrong & the instructor is ignoring that fact for money or if you are on the right track of MA training ?

One way is to contact the Hombu of said governing body. Find out where the closest dojo that's under their umbrella, and visit with that dojo's CI. But first, ask the Hombu to contact that CI for you, in order for you to have a evaluation, to see if you're on track. We do this all of the time!!

If you can, go to the Hombu itself!! Cut the middle man out entirely; right from the horse's mouth!!

Now, if the CI is recognized by the Hombu in a favorable way, then tread softly when you speak to them with your concerns, but still speak to them...keep it short...or you'll be shown the door quickly. If, after speaking with the Hombu, and you're lucky enough to get their attention, they will send a Senior Dan to investigate and to speak with that CI. The Hombu will not want some CI casting any bad light onto the Hombu as well as the brand/style. The Hombu will try to help your CI to see the errors of his way, and help him to reach a solution that will benefit everyone!!

If the Hombu ignores you. Than quit asap!! Go somewhere else!! Your gut feelings...trust them...you believe that you're not receiving the highest quality of instructions...then be proactive and help yourself...you owe that to your MA journey!!

Hang in there!!

Thanks for the advice sensei8.

The new dojo I found is recognised by: Australian Kyokushin Federation / Kyokushin World Federation / Kyokushin World Union and even listed on the AKF website, does that mean it's a good Dojo or not necessarily ?!

To the bold type above...

That's a great question, Safroot!! What's the answer?? Each practitioner of that governing body will have their own answer as to that question. Their daily dealings with that governing body should be favorable by all rights, and again, that answer depends and varies on each practitioner.

We can have a good governing body on one hand, and at the same time, we can have a bad dojo on the other hand, or vice versa. Trust me, no matter the size of the governing body, each dojo, and more importantly, the entire student body is quite aware of things of that magnitude of importance.

The one thing that remains constant is that neither a website and/or an endorsement and/or the like is the infinitive guarantee either way...either 'it' is or 'it' isn't!!

But guess what? Guess who determines that...again?? The practitioner!! However, for that believe to take root, one will have to have more than a notion of an idea and that comes from experiences of being both a practitioner as well as a member of that governing body!!

[Safroot]

The sooner that student figures that out, the better for their MA journey. Many times, no one tells them that they're doing it all wrong

That's exactly my question, if you are rookie like myself & know nothing about the art, How can you figure out if your technique is wrong & the instructor is ignoring that fact for money or if you are on the right track of MA training ?

One way is to contact the Hombu of said governing body. Find out where the closest dojo that's under their umbrella, and visit with that dojo's CI. But first, ask the Hombu to contact that CI for you, in order for you to have a evaluation, to see if you're on track. We do this all of the time!!

If you can, go to the Hombu itself!! Cut the middle man out entirely; right from the horse's mouth!!

Now, if the CI is recognized by the Hombu in a favorable way, then tread softly when you speak to them with your concerns, but still speak to them...keep it short...or you'll be shown the door quickly. If, after speaking with the Hombu, and you're lucky enough to get their attention, they will send a Senior Dan to investigate and to speak with that CI. The Hombu will not want some CI casting any bad light onto the Hombu as well as the brand/style. The Hombu will try to help your CI to see the errors of his way, and help him to reach a solution that will benefit everyone!!

If the Hombu ignores you. Than quit asap!! Go somewhere else!! Your gut feelings...trust them...you believe that you're not receiving the highest quality of instructions...then be proactive and help yourself...you owe that to your MA journey!!

Hang in there!!

Thanks for the advice sensei8.

The new dojo I found is recognised by: Australian Kyokushin Federation / Kyokushin World Federation / Kyokushin World Union and even listed on the AKF website, does that mean it's a good Dojo or not necessarily ?!

To the bold type above...

That's a great question, Safroot!! What's the answer?? Each practitioner of that governing body will have their own answer as to that question. Their daily dealings with that governing body should be favorable by all rights, and again, that answer depends and varies on each practitioner.

We can have a good governing body on one hand, and at the same time, we can have a bad dojo on the other hand, or vice versa. Trust me, no matter the size of the governing body, each dojo, and more importantly, the entire student body is quite aware of things of that magnitude of importance.

The one thing that remains constant is that neither a website and/or an endorsement and/or the like is the infinitive guarantee either way...either 'it' is or 'it' isn't!!

But guess what? Guess who determines that...again?? The practitioner!! However, for that believe to take root, one will have to have more than a notion of an idea and that comes from experiences of being both a practitioner as well as a member of that governing body!!

Hopefully the practitioner can determine at the end of the day

[Alan Armstrong]

To put it very simply, is the money more important than the style?

Or.

Is the style more important than the student?

[bushido_man96]

To put it very simply, is the money more important than the style?

Or.

Is the style more important than the student?

No students = no style anymore. Must have those students. They are the style's most important assets, as they are the future.

[MatsuShinshii]

To put it very simply, is the money more important than the style?

Or.

Is the style more important than the student?

I would say if the money is more important than the style you have a business just like any other. This is the very definition, in my mind, of a McDojo.

The second quote is a little more difficult as the student, if worthy, is the next stage and the torch carrier for the next generation. He will be the transmission of the arts skills and knowledge. So if the arts integrity is kept in tact I would answer the student is more important.

However if the underlying question is should you change the art to conform to a student, my answer would be absolutely not.

This is for all intensive purposes the main reason for the loss of the true intent of the art.

The Japanese as well as Itosu changed it to suit school children. As a result the most important portions of the art, the Jutsu, were removed and replaced with the Do. In effect transforming a highly effective combative/self defense art into a more watered down version.

Any time I hear that the art is being changed to suit the needs of a few students I cringe.

I know I am very old school and some of my opinions do not resonate with everyone here but the art was good enough when I stated in the 70's for students to seek it out for what it was. Not everyone stuck with it because not every one had what it took. Today it seems like most instructors are trying to alter the art to fit the percentage that doesn't fit or do not have what it takes.

This I think is a mistake. Present the art for what it is and let the students decide. If you only have a handful of students, that's ok in my book because they will be the ones that stick with you and truly love the art.

By conforming the art to meet all students you degrade it for those that came to learn it as it was taught to us. To me this makes no sense.

If proof was needed for how far we have altered from the original path, all one would have to do is visit Okinawa and see how the Kata is performed as to the way it is taught here. Night and Day comparison. The bunkai make no sense with the "modern" Kata.

So to answer your question the student is important but not at the expense of the art.

[Safroot]

Today it seems like most instructors are trying to alter the art to fit the percentage that doesn't fit or do not have what it takes.

This I think is a mistake. Present the art for what it is and let the students decide. If you only have a handful of students, that's ok in my book because they will be the ones that stick with you and truly love the art.

By conforming the art to meet all students you degrade it for those that came to learn it as it was taught to us. To me this makes no sense.

Solid post MatsuShinshii, that's why it's not easy to find a school teaching the true art as most of the schools owners will be looking for money more than art, again for someone who train for living that's fair to care for money but the question is what you mentioned : will you compromise/modify the art for the sake of money or you will keep teaching the real art regardless ?!

Note: I am not speaking about minor modification due to injuries or health problems!