Is it for the Art or for Money ?

[Safroot]

In some cases this may be difficult. However here are some blatant examples as follows;

1. They tell you that everyone tests every (fill in the blank) months. Do they all pass? If so you have found yourself a McDojo.

2. There are twice the number of belts for adults. This is pure and simple, a way to make extra money. McDojo.

3. They require you to buy video's, books, and attend a set number of seminars or you can't test. Pure McDojo.

4. White belts training with Black belts. No separation in ranks. McDojo.

5. If Kata has been changed to win tournaments. McDojo.

6. If Kata is nothing more than a passing thought and only trained for belts. McDojo.

7. If you see children running around with black belts on. McDojo.

There are many more but you get the point. If the school is more interested in tournaments and how much they can squeeze out of each student, it's a McDojo. Leave and find a traditional school.

The best way to see if an instructor is serious about his students and about the art is to take the class and watch how they interact with them and what they say and do. You'll get a pretty good feel for it pretty quickly.

Good points to keep an eye on, Thanks MatsuShinshii. Regarding point 4, it has always been a concern for me to be trained with higher ranking at the same time, doing same combinations (which I will struggle with all the time) but I thought that was normal in every dojo ?!

[sensei8]

Hi All,

I would like to figure out, how would you know if the dojo you are training at is really teaching you the Art of Karate or the art wouldn't matter much as long as they collect money ?!

Don't get me wrong, I know some instructors earn their living from their dojos which is fair enough but I am trying to re-start my training in a new dojo close to my new place & I have 2 free lessons to try it out.

In my old dojo ( where I have trained about only 3 months ) I wasn't sure but all what I could feel is that they don't give you much individual attention, all grades training at the same time doing the same thing, how do you expect a rookie like myself to cope & get the right techniques ?! Is the privates lessons /sessions (it cost fortune !) the only way to do it ?

I really want to be on the right track to start my journey this time !

In some cases this may be difficult. However here are some blatant examples as follows;

1. They tell you that everyone tests every (fill in the blank) months. Do they all pass? If so you have found yourself a McDojo.

2. There are twice the number of belts for adults. This is pure and simple, a way to make extra money. McDojo.

3. They require you to buy video's, books, and attend a set number of seminars or you can't test. Pure McDojo.

4. White belts training with Black belts. No separation in ranks. McDojo.

5. If Kata has been changed to win tournaments. McDojo.

6. If Kata is nothing more than a passing thought and only trained for belts. McDojo.

7. If you see children running around with black belts on. McDojo.

There are many more but you get the point. If the school is more interested in tournaments and how much they can squeeze out of each student, it's a McDojo. Leave and find a traditional school.

The best way to see if an instructor is serious about his students and about the art is to take the class and watch how they interact with them and what they say and do. You'll get a pretty good feel for it pretty quickly.

Solid post!!

Number 7 above, does that apply to JBB's?? JBB is a SKKA/Hombu thing, and has been that, ever since their doors opened in 1957; I was a JBB for 5 years!!

[Alan Armstrong]

Hi All,

I would like to figure out, how would you know if the dojo you are training at is really teaching you the Art of Karate or the art wouldn't matter much as long as they collect money ?!

Don't get me wrong, I know some instructors earn their living from their dojos which is fair enough but I am trying to re-start my training in a new dojo close to my new place & I have 2 free lessons to try it out.

In my old dojo ( where I have trained about only 3 months ) I wasn't sure but all what I could feel is that they don't give you much individual attention, all grades training at the same time doing the same thing, how do you expect a rookie like myself to cope & get the right techniques ?! Is the privates lessons /sessions (it cost fortune !) the only way to do it ?

I really want to be on the right track to start my journey this time !

In some cases this may be difficult. However here are some blatant examples as follows;

1. They tell you that everyone tests every (fill in the blank) months. Do they all pass? If so you have found yourself a McDojo.

2. There are twice the number of belts for adults. This is pure and simple, a way to make extra money. McDojo.

3. They require you to buy video's, books, and attend a set number of seminars or you can't test. Pure McDojo.

4. White belts training with Black belts. No separation in ranks. McDojo.

5. If Kata has been changed to win tournaments. McDojo.

6. If Kata is nothing more than a passing thought and only trained for belts. McDojo.

7. If you see children running around with black belts on. McDojo.

There are many more but you get the point. If the school is more interested in tournaments and how much they can squeeze out of each student, it's a McDojo. Leave and find a traditional school.

The best way to see if an instructor is serious about his students and about the art is to take the class and watch how they interact with them and what they say and do. You'll get a pretty good feel for it pretty quickly.

Solid post!!

Number 7 above, does that apply to JBB's?? JBB is a SKKA/Hombu thing, and has been that, ever since their doors opened in 1957; I was a JBB for 5 years!!

This is all great advice. Wish I had some guidance like the ones being pointeded here; when I was starting out on my MA journey.

[bushido_man96]

In some cases this may be difficult. However here are some blatant examples as follows;

1. They tell you that everyone tests every (fill in the blank) months. Do they all pass? If so you have found yourself a McDojo.

2. There are twice the number of belts for adults. This is pure and simple, a way to make extra money. McDojo.

3. They require you to buy video's, books, and attend a set number of seminars or you can't test. Pure McDojo.

4. White belts training with Black belts. No separation in ranks. McDojo.

5. If Kata has been changed to win tournaments. McDojo.

6. If Kata is nothing more than a passing thought and only trained for belts. McDojo.

7. If you see children running around with black belts on. McDojo.

This caught my eye, so I thought I'd see how it applied to my own school.

1. They tell you that everyone tests every (fill in the blank) months. Do they all pass? If so you have found yourself a McDojo.

Our school runs on approximately two month testing cycles. Sometimes, during the summer months, our instructor will put off a testing for another month to give students more time. However, not every student tests, is expected to test, or is eligible to test. And we do no-change students if need be.

2. There are twice the number of belts for adults. This is pure and simple, a way to make extra money. McDojo.

We have our traditional class curriculum, and we have a separate ranking system and curriculum for our Little Lions program, which is for 6-8 year olds. Its two different programs. Its no question, though, that the Little Lions program helps a great deal to supplement the income of the school. McDojo, or good business planning?

3. They require you to buy video's, books, and attend a set number of seminars or you can't test. Pure McDojo.

This is not the case at my school. Our GM is not a published author, and we don't really have a "pro-shop" to sell anything. Most of what is sold is stuff for the gym members; protein, supplements, etc.

4. White belts training with Black belts. No separation in ranks. McDojo.

Our classes are always combined. We haven't had enough students to justify classes for beginner/intermediate/advanced classes. We used to have a black belt class, but haven't had that for some time. I don't think that makes us a McDojo, though.

5. If Kata has been changed to win tournaments. McDojo.

Nope. Our forms are a touch different from other versions, but they aren't adjusted for tournament purposes.

6. If Kata is nothing more than a passing thought and only trained for belts. McDojo.

Its not a "passing thought" in our school, but it is part of the belt curriculum. We don't train any forms applications, other than those put together in our one-steps. It is still an important part of our training, though.

And, I think there needs to be some perspective here. TKD, especially when the pioneers started to design their different forms to separate from the Shotokan background, never really did do forms applications the way it was done in other styles of Karate. This is more of a stylistic difference, in my opinion.

7. If you see children running around with black belts on. McDojo.

Yep, we have child black belts. They train the same curriculum as the adults, and must meet the same testing requirements as the adults.

So, it appears my school hits on at least three of the points you've made above. I guess if others would want to refer to my school as a McDojo, then so be it. But I know that I've never been guaranteed to pass a test, and have not had anything handed to me in my journey throughout.

My point is that not all of those things mean you are finding a McDojo. Each school needs to be looked at and evaluated to see if it is going to fit the wants and needs of the prospective student.

[bball197046]

Hpefully I like the feel of the new dojo , I am dying to go back to training

Hi Safroot,

Im Chris. I am dealing with finding a good dojo right now as well.. unfortunately cost has to be a consideration.

[MatsuShinshii]

Good points to keep an eye on, Thanks MatsuShinshii. Regarding point 4, it has always been a concern for me to be trained with higher ranking at the same time, doing same combinations (which I will struggle with all the time) but I thought that was normal in every dojo ?!

I figured this would not be translated correctly. I should have qualified these statements.

Yes it is good for you to train with more qualified students, even black belts. However the curriculum is different between the ranks.

Point in fact - you would not teach a Hachikyu Kusanku as their first Kata. There is a natural flow to the learning process and it exists for a reason.

Having made this statement I need to further explain - a Mudansha student first learns a beginner Kata to learn how to move, transition and how to generate power. These techniques are often times simpler to pick up.

If you were to drop a student right into a black belt class they would not be able to defend themselves during Kumite and they would not benefit from learning an advanced Kata before the basics have been taught.

Yes it benefits the student to train with higher ranks and this is common place once they have been acclimated. We bring in higher ranks to work with lower ranks and give them pointers and help them progress. However I do not have Shechikyu training with Shodan, Nidan or Sandan students.

To further my point you would not force a Shodan to back track every class to practice basic Kata, Kihon. Yes it is always good to go back to the basics and we do this often but I do not force my black belts to take beginners classes nor train at their level. It serves no purpose.

McDojo's throw all ranks onto the floor and the training can not be said to be targeted to the specific rank. It slows down progress and this is by design. If you train longer and it takes you longer to learn the requirements for a given rank, the instructor benefits and the student does not. We target our students training to benefit them.

I hope this clarify's my statement.

[MatsuShinshii]

Solid post!!

Number 7 above, does that apply to JBB's?? JBB is a SKKA/Hombu thing, and has been that, ever since their doors opened in 1957; I was a JBB for 5 years!!

Sensei8,

Like the last post, I should have clarified my statements.

I understand that there are junior black belts in most styles and no this does not necessarily apply to them unless they are considered true Shodan, Nidan, Sandan.

I will be honest in saying I could never promote a child to this rank. It's the way I was taught and the atmosphere I trained in that has sculpted my opinions. I do not personally accept students under the age of 16 and have never had a Shodan under the age of 21.

I know not a lot of people agree with me these days but I hold Shodan and above as something more than just another rank and feel that a persons maturity should come into play with the responsibility of being a Yudansha.

Having said this I have no issue with this practice or the fact that other arts utilize the JBB system.

I do have an issue however when a 10 year old is wearing a BB and is touted as earning it.

You are famous for saying proof is on the mat. Well in my world Shodan means you can prove it on the mat and I've yet to meet a child that could rise to this level at these ages.

However I understand the intent of having a JBB and understand that this does not mean the same thing as a legitimate Shodan ranking. So no it would not include JBB.

I hope this answers your question and hopefully I did not insult you with my statements. I can tend to be a little too old school for some and have a tendency to state my opinion without the proper political correctness that is so prevalent in today's society.

I have read many of your articles/posts and have an appreciation for your point of view and it sounds that we have walked a similar journey. Hopefully you take my explanation in the spirit it was given.

[sensei8]

MatsuShinaii,

I took no offense with...

7. If you see children running around with black belts on. McDojo.

I was only wondering about your feelings concerning JBB, and you're response caused me no offense either!!

Often times, Shindokan has been accused of as a McDojo because we've children with black belts, aka, JBB. Our Soke, when he first heard about the McDojo term, he only asked if there were dojo's inside of a McDonald. Once the term was explained to him, he chuckled and said..."Good idea...first train...then eat...all same place...yes!".

When Soke understood what a McDojo was pertaining to how children black belts were labeled, he'd only say..."Our children aren't black belts, they're Junior Black Belts...not the same!!".

Personally, I hated being that JBB for 5 years and then some before I earned my Shodan. While I understood the reasons, I still didn't like it, but I endured it because Dai-Soke taught us as though we were adults. We'd learn the things that adult Shodan and Nidan would learn. That would be the end because we were not allowed to earn those adult ranks. That can be frustrating when you're a child/teen...I was no exception to the rule.

As an adult, I kept the JBB alive and well in my own dojo's!! History repeats itself; my JBB's felt that frustration as well in their own MA journey.

[MatsuShinshii]

In some cases this may be difficult. However here are some blatant examples as follows;

1. They tell you that everyone tests every (fill in the blank) months. Do they all pass? If so you have found yourself a McDojo.

2. There are twice the number of belts for adults. This is pure and simple, a way to make extra money. McDojo.

3. They require you to buy video's, books, and attend a set number of seminars or you can't test. Pure McDojo.

4. White belts training with Black belts. No separation in ranks. McDojo.

5. If Kata has been changed to win tournaments. McDojo.

6. If Kata is nothing more than a passing thought and only trained for belts. McDojo.

7. If you see children running around with black belts on. McDojo.

This caught my eye, so I thought I'd see how it applied to my own school.

1. They tell you that everyone tests every (fill in the blank) months. Do they all pass? If so you have found yourself a McDojo.

Our school runs on approximately two month testing cycles. Sometimes, during the summer months, our instructor will put off a testing for another month to give students more time. However, not every student tests, is expected to test, or is eligible to test. And we do no-change students if need be.

I am talking about those schools that test every so many months and everyone tests and passes.

I'll answer this by saying that no two people are alike. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. To say that everyone will be ready on a set cycle is ludicrous.

2. There are twice the number of belts for adults. This is pure and simple, a way to make extra money. McDojo.

We have our traditional class curriculum, and we have a separate ranking system and curriculum for our Little Lions program, which is for 6-8 year olds. Its two different programs. Its no question, though, that the Little Lions program helps a great deal to supplement the income of the school. McDojo, or good business planning?

I can't honestly answer this as I do not teach children under the age of 16. It may be needed as children develop at different times and the added belts are a way to gauge their progress, or a way to help the instructor see at a glance where they stand due to large classes, or it may just be a way to make a few extra bucks. But again, I don't teach children so it would not be fair for me to pass judgement or to give my opinion.

3. They require you to buy video's, books, and attend a set number of seminars or you can't test. Pure McDojo.

This is not the case at my school. Our GM is not a published author, and we don't really have a "pro-shop" to sell anything. Most of what is sold is stuff for the gym members; protein, supplements, etc.

4. White belts training with Black belts. No separation in ranks. McDojo.

Our classes are always combined. We haven't had enough students to justify classes for beginner/intermediate/advanced classes. We used to have a black belt class, but haven't had that for some time. I don't think that makes us a McDojo, though.

I guess it depends on how the class is ran and whether the ranks are properly targeted.

My first experience with the arts was at the age of 12 and I was thrown into class with all ranks up to Shodan. We all warmed up together and we all performed Kihon together. Once that was concluded the CI would take the Yudansha and a few of his senior BB's would take the rest of the class and break them up. The training was targeted to the grades.

5. If Kata has been changed to win tournaments. McDojo.

Nope. Our forms are a touch different from other versions, but they aren't adjusted for tournament purposes.

Well I fear you will not appreciate my answer for this. I will start by saying I am a pure traditionalist and feel that the original Kata convey the true intent of the art. I do not agree with changes to the Kata.

Having said this, this does not mean that your sensei changed the Kata.

Arts have changed as it was passed down from founder to the next successor and on down. The tendency was to put your mark on it and as a result you will find small differences in arts that are of the same lineage.

6. If Kata is nothing more than a passing thought and only trained for belts. McDojo.

Its not a "passing thought" in our school, but it is part of the belt curriculum. We don't train any forms applications, other than those put together in our one-steps. It is still an important part of our training, though.

And, I think there needs to be some perspective here. TKD, especially when the pioneers started to design their different forms to separate from the Shotokan background, never really did do forms applications the way it was done in other styles of Karate. This is more of a stylistic difference, in my opinion.

I can not comment of TKD as I have never taken the art. I do feel that when talking about Kata you have to include Bunkai, Bunseki and Oyo.

If not it tends to loose translation on students as just something they have to do for rank. Just my 2 cents.

7. If you see children running around with black belts on. McDojo.

Yep, we have child black belts. They train the same curriculum as the adults, and must meet the same testing requirements as the adults.

So, it appears my school hits on at least three of the points you've made above. I guess if others would want to refer to my school as a McDojo, then so be it. But I know that I've never been guaranteed to pass a test, and have not had anything handed to me in my journey throughout.

We all instruct as we see fit. I am not saying that you are a McDojo. The intent of my post was things to watch out for and what is very common place in terms of McDojo's.

Obviously there are exceptions. Many good instructors fall to the whims of parent/student pressure not to mention financial pressure if this is their only means of income. It does not necessarily mean they are a McDojos. However you hit on a key point and probably the most important point of all. The selling of rank. If the rank is not earned, it is a McDojo pure and simple.

Yes it's true that I do not agree with the concept of children BB's. It's my opinion that they are not mature enough and at least in our art this means we start to teach them techniques that are a liability to not only the school/organization but also to the public.

That an I've yet met a child that can fight at the level I expect of my BB's. It's a personal thing and my opinion.

I would say this... if you are happy and feel that you have gotten solid instruction and have earned your rank then you should be happy. If you feel that your school is more of a business than a place that cares about the quality of their students, essentially a belt factory, you have a McDojo.

My view points are because I have seen these issues in my quest for other arts to further my knowledge. These have been warning signs and red flags because these were prevalent markers that I identified and associated with McDojo's and down right charlatans.

By no means am I the expert. However the question was asked and I answered as honestly as possible based on my knowledge.

[MatsuShinshii]

This is all great advice. Wish I had some guidance like the ones being pointeded here; when I was starting out on my MA journey.

Alan,

I wish I had been told what to look for before trying to further my experience in the arts.

I had always trained in the Shuri-Te style of Karate and decided to broaden my horizons by trying out new styles.

I ran thru three, what I'll call McDojo's, before finding a reputable school with an honest instructor. It took me two months to figure out the first. The second was blatantly obvious, and the third was just a phony that couldn't stand toe to toe with his so called yellow belts much less anyone that had any real training.

Unfortunately two of the three are still in business and thriving. Makes no sense to me but these are a few warning signs that I picked up on that might mean you have a McDojo.