Question about etiquette (sort of)

[chickadee]

Hello! Sometimes there are situations in my karate training when I'm not sure about the expected behavior for me as a student. I don't know whether there is an established way of responding to those situations or whether they are specific to my Sensei's teaching style. I'll appreciate your thoughts and advice.

Some background

1. My Sensei talks very little. There might be a whole class when he names an exercise and counts, and that's it. No explanations. No corrections. I do catch his eye on us now and then, but often he'd direct us to turn away from the mirrors and then you can see nobody, just focus on the count.

2. Our dojo is very small. Four regular students. Not uncommon to have only two or three students in a class for the night.

3. I've been repeatedly told off by Sensei for verbal communications during the class (things like explaining the current drill to my partner) so I'm now thorough afraid to open my mouth and ask him anything.

Particular situation

Yesterday we had three students present and I was the highest rank. At some point Sensei asked us to do Renzoku Bunkai but Paul didn't know it all, and Jim only knew the defense. Sensei told me to be the attacker against Jim, while Paul to follow the defense moves without a partner. After a few repetitions of bunkai, Jim and Paul swapped, and Jim was following my moves as an attacker without a partner. So far so good -- I knew what I was doing: helping the guys to learn (pacing it for them and stuff). But then Sensei told Jim to work on Renzoku with Paul and gave no instructions to me. None. Not a single word. Thus my question: what am I supposed to do at this point?

I did a few repetitions of Renzoku without a partner, both sides, full speed and power. Then I started working on my kata. I don't mind working on my own but I'm not sure that's what is expected. Is it? Or am I supposed to do the same exercise the other students are doing until Sensei instructs me otherwise?

[JackD]

Perhaps it's your Sensei and not you that needs to question their etiquette!

They are an instructor not a master, if he's "telling you off" or making you feel awkward perhaps you ought to talk to him about it, otherwise find a club where you feel comfortable!

[mazzybear]

How can anything be learned by anybody if he gives no instruction or corrections? How can one be sure they're doing anything right? Things have to be broken down and explained so they are understood. Next time he fails to give you instruction, ask him what he wants you to do. That's what he's there for, after all, he is a teacher. If he shouts at you or makes you feel uncomfortable in ANY way, then JackD is right, find somewhere else where you can learn instead of just going through the motions hoping what you're doing is correct.

Mo.

[chickadee]

How can anything be learned by anybody if he gives no instruction or corrections? How can one be sure they're doing anything right? Things have to be broken down and explained so they are understood. Next time he fails to give you instruction, ask him what he wants you to do. That's what he's there for, after all, he is a teacher. If he shouts at you or makes you feel uncomfortable in ANY way, then JackD is right, find somewhere else where you can learn instead of just going through the motions hoping what you're doing is correct.

I apologize for giving the wrong impression about my Sensei. He does give us instruction and corrections, just not in every class and not profusely.

The modern Western culture is employing verbally based feedback loop as one of its major tools of social interaction and teaching. I've been raised and educated within this culture and I'm used to it. But as far as I understand, the traditional karate teaching style isn't like that (I'd be careful not to generalize to the Eastern culture as a whole, as I don't know it well enough). The verbally based feedback loop is very quick and rich in detail (definitely an advantage) but it often doesn't stick well with the listener, in some cases it's kind of forced down the student's throat to very little benefit. The "no talking" teaching style relies more on the internal feedback loop, when the student is carefully observing his teacher and is aware of himself and the results of his own actions. The teacher gives instructions/advice sparingly and only when the student is ready to internalize it... This is my general understanding of my Sensei's teaching approach. However being a through-and-through "talkie" I sometimes get confused by the lack of verbal communication and don't know what is expected from me.

By the way, I've never heard Sensei shouting at people. Never. And I've been training with him for ten years. As for feeling uncomfortable... I don't know. Are we taking this hard path of karate training to feel comfortable about ourselves?

[sensei8]

Teaching styles are what they are, in that, no two teaching styles will, or should be, the same, and for me, I'm quite thankful for that.

Both our Soke and Dai-Soke were born, raised, and trained in Okinawa. Their teaching styles were different, yet they reached the student body, and they therefor reached the same goals for the student body: To learn Shindokan.

Having said that, the one thing they had in common with teaching styles is that they both had quite a lot of difficulty with English, and while they both improved in English somewhat by the time they both passed away, their English was rough and difficult to understand. In short, they both sounded like a grunting cave man!

Both of them, Soke and Dai-Soke, would say very little, due to them not ever mastering the English language, directed the student body with a compassionate Shinai, and a ton of demonstrations...as they both were found of saying..."You have to experience Shindokan to appreciate it!!", and that's were the tons of demonstrations/examples accompanied by their grunting cave man broken English.

Like your Sensei, neither Soke or Dai-Soke, ever raised their voices in anger toward the student body, they were compassionate in their teachings, and they were not tolerant with many protocols and the like violations.

However, if you do feel uncomfortable, and as many that have already touched on this, find somewhere/someone else to train under/with; can't learn much in a hostile environment because it's not conducive to learning.

If your Sensei has a "close door" mindset, and this makes it difficult to approach him with questions and/or concerns and/or anything else, then that too is grounds for seeking out better learning grounds. Both Soke and Dai-Soke were open to questions and/or concerns and/or anything else, which, for me, is great because I always asked questions, and I was that doubting Thomas both on and off the floor. Sure, I had to obey etiquette/protocol, otherwise, we'd be invisible to them, especially if done on the floor.

I suppose, listen to your gut and/or the raising of the tiny hairs on your arms, might be some good advice...maybe.

[chickadee]

However, if you do feel uncomfortable, and as many that have already touched on this, find somewhere/someone else to train under/with; can't learn much in a hostile environment because it's not conducive to learning.

I wouldn't call my feelings "uncomfortable"... Sometimes I get bewildered and confused, which isn't comfortable per se but there is no humiliation/hostility involved... I just don't know what is expected from me and what I should do. At work (and in life) I get situations like that all the time but there I know that by taking initiative and responsibility, even if my decisions aren't perfect, I wouldn't break any protocol or show disrespect to seniors: my workplace environment encourages people to act on their own and my life is after all my life... Dojo floor seems like a whole different matter.

Sure, I had to obey etiquette/protocol, otherwise, we'd be invisible to them, especially if done on the floor.

Not being able to figure out the etiquette/protocol is exactly my problem! I wish our school was bigger so I could observe other students in similar situations and "do as Romans do"... This is why I'm asking here on the forum: maybe, there is a protocol/etiquette about how to behave when Sensei is busy with other students and haven't given you any specific instructions but I'm just being in the dark (and as a result of my blunders invisible to my Sensei)!

[JR 137]

Stupid question, is your teacher Japanese/Okinawan/other Asian? I'm assuming so, but you never actually said he is (or I didn't see it).

IMO, you shouldn't be wondering what's acceptable after training with anyone for 10 years. 10 weeks or 10 months? Sure. 10 years?

[Nidan Melbourne]

I understand your frustration at a lack of feedback by your sensei. But his intentions may lay around the fact that you should be able look internally for what you felt like needed to. be changed.

At my dojo, even though we are a club of 100+ students; we have in our advanced seniors class only 5 regulars. If sensei is busy he may tell us to work on something; we will but will focus on the small things and not just the overall thing we were told to do.

Example: i was asked to work on Seisan, shisochin and seipai along with Gekesai & saifa bunkais. Now this was at the start of the class and spent 90% of the time on small details.

[sensei8]

Are any rules, and the like, posted?? Do said rules clarify your concerns??

If Sensei is busy with other students, the best thing to do is not interrupt...ever!! Wait, train, and when he approaches you, ask for his help. Or, and this is a sensitive one, stop training and raise your hand, and when he approaches you, ask him for his help. The sensitive part is that you might be ignored, or worse, he'll ask you why you're just standing there....train, not stand still!! Waiting for the "Romans" to tell you anything can get you in the lions den; and that's not a good place to be.

Nothing ventured is nothing earned. What's the worse that can happen?!? You need to, imho, approach him and find out exactly what is and what isn't the etiquette/protocol of the dojo. Being silent and waiting to stumble upon the proper etiquette/protocol is a waste of time, imho. Why? You're there to learn and to train!!

Mizu No Kokoro and Tsuki No Kokoro: Mind like the water and mind like the moon!! Can't give your 100% if you're not totally focused on learning and training. SO FIND OUT ASAP FOR YOUR PEACE OF MIND!!

[MatsuShinshii]

Hello! Sometimes there are situations in my karate training when I'm not sure about the expected behavior for me as a student. I don't know whether there is an established way of responding to those situations or whether they are specific to my Sensei's teaching style. I'll appreciate your thoughts and advice.

Some background

1. My Sensei talks very little. There might be a whole class when he names an exercise and counts, and that's it. No explanations. No corrections. I do catch his eye on us now and then, but often he'd direct us to turn away from the mirrors and then you can see nobody, just focus on the count.

2. Our dojo is very small. Four regular students. Not uncommon to have only two or three students in a class for the night.

3. I've been repeatedly told off by Sensei for verbal communications during the class (things like explaining the current drill to my partner) so I'm now thorough afraid to open my mouth and ask him anything.

Particular situation

Yesterday we had three students present and I was the highest rank. At some point Sensei asked us to do Renzoku Bunkai but Paul didn't know it all, and Jim only knew the defense. Sensei told me to be the attacker against Jim, while Paul to follow the defense moves without a partner. After a few repetitions of bunkai, Jim and Paul swapped, and Jim was following my moves as an attacker without a partner. So far so good -- I knew what I was doing: helping the guys to learn (pacing it for them and stuff). But then Sensei told Jim to work on Renzoku with Paul and gave no instructions to me. None. Not a single word. Thus my question: what am I supposed to do at this point?

I did a few repetitions of Renzoku without a partner, both sides, full speed and power. Then I started working on my kata. I don't mind working on my own but I'm not sure that's what is expected. Is it? Or am I supposed to do the same exercise the other students are doing until Sensei instructs me otherwise?

Sounds like your Sensei was taught by an old school instructor or he is just socially awkward.

If he was taught the old school way it is expected that the student pay attention and learn or mimic his teachers directions without questions. The theory is that the student first learn the proper way before an explanation is ever given.

If he is just socially awkward you may want to speak with him after class and ask him what he expects in this situation.

Another thought is that he may not pay the same attention to you because he knows you already know these drills and expects you to be an example to the other students being that you are senior.

I would say that only your Sensei can answer these questions and you should talk to him.

Respect is one of the tenants of our art. You should be respectful to him and ask him away from the other students as the answer may not be something he would want shared with them. Having said that he should respect you and give you an answer.