Refusal To Bow!!

[Hawkmoon]

hmmmm ...

They refuse to bow...

1) Entering either training floor.

2) Exiting either training floor.

3) Whenever they're addressing or being addressed by any Black Belt.

4) Whenever they're addressing or being addressed by any Sempai.

5) At the beginning of said Kata.

6) At the conclusion of said Kata.

Just to look at this section (ignoring the rest of your post, just trying to keep it/make it as simple as i can) yes I have issue with the list and why the list was created for the same reasons!!

(There goes the 'ignore' comment out the window! )

1. This is minor to some massive to others, but no matter what its simply polite and courteous, simple manners!

Black mark against the persons name.

2. Same 1.

Black mark against the persons name.

3. Same as 1 & 2.

Black mark against the persons name.

4. Same as 1, 2 & 3.

Black mark against the persons name.

5. Entering the 'area' be that for formal dojo training, competition or demonstration its that manners thing for me.

Black mark against the persons name.

If its you in a corner I see no reason to bow to a wall for example ... a more relaxed approach is acceptable.

Yay! a different answer..kind'a!

6 . Same as 5.

Black mark against the persons name.

Etiquette is not a hard thing to master it is not a difficult thing to remember. You would not walk into a meeting at the office or church without seeking permission or 'knocking' announcing your wish to enter to interrupt.

So why just wander around and do stuff in the dojo....etiquette is part of the whole package not an optional extra like air con in the car!

[Nidan Melbourne]

I am unsure of what to take of it to be honest. I respect everyones religious beliefs but when you undertake a martial art there is no religiousness behind it. In my eyes when we bow it is always to say to our partner/s "thank you for working with me and helping me learn".

[sensei8]

First off, I appreciate everyone's posts; well thought out, and concise.

Very quick decision...DENIED!!

That was the decision made by the Administrative Department, and their decision was unanimous...I recused myself!! The matter is closed!!

And yes, all 3 of them were advised of the decision made by the Administrative Department behind closed doors in private session. I also sat with them all several times before the Administrative Department was seated for this matter, and I've sat with them all after the decision was made. They understand, and they respect the final decision, although, they had hoped for a more favorable outcome.

I've scheduled a meeting with the 3 of them with Greg and I, as well as Hugh, of our Legal Team, to discuss whether they'll be allowed to remain as part of the student body or not at 1830 hours today. I suspect, from what I feel in my gut, that they'll excuse themselves from remaining. This saddens me to no end because everyone deserves the right to pursue their MA journey without prejudice.

[sensei8]

These 3, as have every student of the SKKA, have had their expectations explained to them when they became students of the SKKA, and whenever necessary, they've been reminded of their expectations...including the act of bowing, as in General in the MA, as well as within the SKKA/Shindokan.

These 3 have their rights, as does anyone!! Nonetheless, the SKKA/Shindokan has its rights, as well, and the act of bowing is a part of being a student of Shindokan.

How these 3 students interpret their religious beliefs and understandings is their own perception, and however they might perceive, their perception is correct and true to them. Therefore, I'll not debate, nor will I entertain, an argument as to that fact. After all, I believe the fact of how they believe is none of my business. I believe what I believe, and they believe what they believe, and I'm not the one to judge whether they're right or wrong, as I can only judge and determine for myself. They owe me nothing more than what they've already said, and concretely stood behind, and that was..."The act of bowing is against our religious belief."

In my opinion, our doors will always be open to them to return, if they do leave, whenever they decide to do so!!

I too, believe that the SKKA is to teach Shindokan, and bowing is the least of what's necessary and/or required. We're to teach effectiveness, and whether one bows or not, is miniscule of my concerns. Sure, bowing is an intricate part of Shindokan's history, and important, but the act of bowing should match the moment.

The 3 of them don't have problems with any honorific labels because they see those labels as titles that are assigned to certain individuals within the SKKA, as well as in the MA in General, and they understand why we use the Japanese names and not the English names.

Yes...is Shindokan for them? That's for them to decide!! If not, than it's not!!

Like Mo has said..."When in Rome.........." Therefore, our Rome, is the SKKA/Hombu, and bowing is what we do because that's what we were all taught to do by Soke and Dai-Soke. If you don't like Rome, move far away, so as to not being influenced one way or another!!

According to the Hombu's CI, Greg, he's counseled them all many times, but he's not wanting to expel them because he sees the MAist in them all, and Greg doesn't want to extinguish the flame within them because they will not bow. Yes, they do show Greg and others respect, but they do that outwardly in other ways, like..."Yes Sir/Maam!!" and so on and so forth, they just refuse to bow. Greg says he's told them the reasons for bowing before and after a Kata, but, the 3 of them have said that bowing is bowing and they won't do it, nor separate one thing from another.

Can someone say...Catch 22!?!?!

Our rules and regulations are for ALL/EVERYONE, and bowing isn't a whim, it's our way, and no one is better than another...so...if I bow, then you better bow too. If not, what am I to do...beat you up? NO!! Yell at you? NO!! Expel you? NO!! Suspend you? NO!! Throw a fit? NO!! What good will it do to do any of that?!? Who really wins at the battle of the wills?? Sure, I don't like it that they refuse to bow, but I can't force anyone to do anything, no matter who I think I am.

If the SKKA makes exceptions for one, then the SKKA should make exceptions for everyone!! I don't ever want to open that Pandora's box...ever!!

Our Hombu does have a Kamiza, however, we're not required to bow to it. This act of it being mandatory, never occurred, nor was it enforced from Soke and/or Dai-Soke because they respected the beliefs of others.

JR 137, you're right! I do not bow to the Kamiza due to my Christian beliefs, and I don't hang up any pictures up in any of my dojo's of Soke and/or Dai-Soke and/or of any MA Master because of my religious beliefs. I hang up only one picture, and it's of Jesus...dead center of the main wall. And yes, some students have been offended of that, and I've told them, stay or leave, I don't care one way or another, and you'll leave before I take that picture down!!

Again, they are following every other piece of protocol as well as showing sincere respect to others, with the exception of bowing.

::Scratching my head on this one::

[mazzybear]

These 3, as have every student of the SKKA, have had their expectations explained to them when they became students of the SKKA, and whenever necessary, they've been reminded of their expectations...including the act of bowing, as in General in the MA, as well as within the SKKA/Shindokan.

These 3 have their rights, as does anyone!! Nonetheless, the SKKA/Shindokan has its rights, as well, and the act of bowing is a part of being a student of Shindokan.

How these 3 students interpret their religious beliefs and understandings is their own perception, and however they might perceive, their perception is correct and true to them. Therefore, I'll not debate, nor will I entertain, an argument as to that fact. After all, I believe the fact of how they believe is none of my business. I believe what I believe, and they believe what they believe, and I'm not the one to judge whether they're right or wrong, as I can only judge and determine for myself. They owe me nothing more than what they've already said, and concretely stood behind, and that was..."The act of bowing is against our religious belief."

In my opinion, our doors will always be open to them to return, if they do leave, whenever they decide to do so!!

I too, believe that the SKKA is to teach Shindokan, and bowing is the least of what's necessary and/or required. We're to teach effectiveness, and whether one bows or not, is miniscule of my concerns. Sure, bowing is an intricate part of Shindokan's history, and important, but the act of bowing should match the moment.

The 3 of them don't have problems with any honorific labels because they see those labels as titles that are assigned to certain individuals within the SKKA, as well as in the MA in General, and they understand why we use the Japanese names and not the English names.

Yes...is Shindokan for them? That's for them to decide!! If not, than it's not!!

Like Mo has said..."When in Rome.........." Therefore, our Rome, is the SKKA/Hombu, and bowing is what we do because that's what we were all taught to do by Soke and Dai-Soke. If you don't like Rome, move far away, so as to not being influenced one way or another!!

According to the Hombu's CI, Greg, he's counseled them all many times, but he's not wanting to expel them because he sees the MAist in them all, and Greg doesn't want to extinguish the flame within them because they will not bow. Yes, they do show Greg and others respect, but they do that outwardly in other ways, like..."Yes Sir/Maam!!" and so on and so forth, they just refuse to bow. Greg says he's told them the reasons for bowing before and after a Kata, but, the 3 of them have said that bowing is bowing and they won't do it, nor separate one thing from another.

Can someone say...Catch 22!?!?!

Our rules and regulations are for ALL/EVERYONE, and bowing isn't a whim, it's our way, and no one is better than another...so...if I bow, then you better bow too. If not, what am I to do...beat you up? NO!! Yell at you? NO!! Expel you? NO!! Suspend you? NO!! Throw a fit? NO!! What good will it do to do any of that?!? Who really wins at the battle of the wills?? Sure, I don't like it that they refuse to bow, but I can't force anyone to do anything, no matter who I think I am.

If the SKKA makes exceptions for one, then the SKKA should make exceptions for everyone!! I don't ever want to open that Pandora's box...ever!!

Our Hombu does have a Kamiza, however, we're not required to bow to it. This act of it being mandatory, never occurred, nor was it enforced from Soke and/or Dai-Soke because they respected the beliefs of others.

JR 137, you're right! I do not bow to the Kamiza due to my Christian beliefs, and I don't hang up any pictures up in any of my dojo's of Soke and/or Dai-Soke and/or of any MA Master because of my religious beliefs. I hang up only one picture, and it's of Jesus...dead center of the main wall. And yes, some students have been offended of that, and I've told them, stay or leave, I don't care one way or another, and you'll leave before I take that picture down!!

Again, they are following every other piece of protocol as well as showing sincere respect to others, with the exception of bowing.

::Scratching my head on this one::

As I said in my previous post, I fail to see how bowing can go against their religious beliefs but, I myself am not religious, so, I decided to look in to it further. Google to the rescue!! Apparently there is a precedent for this exact situation from back in 2002, funnily enough involving 3 students, although they were Judo students from Seattle. The students argued that in bowing they were subjugating themselves unto others as according to Exodus:

Exodus 20:4-5 KJ version

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

The Judge ruled against them, citing that they should be required to bow during competition. The students were to appeal but, I can't find anything on any appeal.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/606290/posts

Very interesting to say the least.

Mo.

[Lupin1]

I find it hard to interpret that verse to mean you can't bow to another person as a sign of respect. It seems to be talking more of not creating false idols, which is not what's happening when you bow to a partner in martial arts. But then again, I'm not Christian, and I know that Christian beliefs and interpretations of the Bible span the gamut. And while I do enjoy some friendly apologetics every so often, I would stay out of it in this case.

I guess it comes down to how important bowing is at your particular dojo. My dojo doesn't place a huge importance on it. We bow at the beginning and end of kata and that's about it for adults. The kids bow at the beginning and end of class, before and after sparring, and after partner drills in addition to during kata. We don't really see it as integral to our studies and wouldn't have a problem if someone chose not to do it. But if your school sees it as integral, then, as Danielle said, the students need to question if that school/art the right fit for them.

[bushido_man96]

I've got a couple of ideas on how to look at this.

1. I was told early on that bowing in the east is the equivalent to the handshake in the west. It really isn't much more than that.

I wonder if the reason for the bow has ever been explained to them in this way. Perhaps it would have helped. However, its hard to justify it when bowing onto and off of a floor. You wouldn't shake hands with the floor, and a floor is pretty neutral when it comes to accepting the respect of those that tread upon it.

2. If we can agree on statement 1 above, then would it be so bad as to make an exception and replace bowing with handshakes? It would still be a sign of respect, and you would be showing that you respect their beliefs in turn, regardless as to whether they might be misguided or not.

Just food for thought. A different direction to take the discussion. I'm not in disagreement with the course of action the Hombu took. I'm just providing a different angle.

[Luther unleashed]

I lost my first student after month 2, the father said it was because of his religion and he couldn't bow to the flag, and that in his culture it meant a symbol of war to bow to a country's flag.

For is its similar to the Op, we bow when entering, exiting the studio, to instructor when class begins and ends, and anytime an instructor teaches and then then moves along. It all represents respect and tradition to me and nothing more, certainly not war, in fact everything traditional martial arts is about is relarely war. Anyways, People have their own preferences

[JohnASE]

I had a pretty in-depth discussion about this with a friend when he fist started training. He was concerned that bowing was too close to worship, especially when bowing to a shrine or when entering the dojo. He decided that bowing to a person or inanimate object didn't need to be any more religious than saluting a superior officer or our nation's flag. I don't think many would consider saluting the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier to be an act of worship.

Obviously, I don't believe in forcing your beliefs on someone else, but I don't see anything wrong with discussing this. If you can't convince them, at least maybe you can learn more about their position.

I lost my first student after month 2, the father said it was because of his religion and he couldn't bow to the flag, and that in his culture it meant a symbol of war to bow to a country's flag.

That's interesting. Of course, a flag, being a symbol of a country, is used during war, but I don't see it as being a symbol of war. It's use goes well beyond it's use in war.

[sensei8]

Well, it's official...all 3 of them quit!! Citing that the SKKA doesn't respect their beliefs, so why should they respect ours. Fair enough!!