Not until 4th dan?

[JackD]

Perhaps it was stipulated in his insurance plan?

[sensei8]

Perhaps it was stipulated in his insurance plan?

If so, then he needs much better insurance!! When insurance plans try to dictate MA training, then it's time to shop for much better insurance plans, and they're there, gear for MA training.

Imho!!

[Kanku65]

Spartacus, can you provide us with a relative timeframe? Like, is this modern or in the past?

[Spartacus Maximus]

Out of respect and in case it is mistaken information, no names will be mentioned. Suffice to say that the instructor in question is now deceased and was a senior student of Chibana Chosin. The instructor mentioned taught from the death of his teacher in 1969 up to his own death in the early 2000's.

The type of kumite taught was limited to controlled drills gradually building up to more spontaneous action. 4th Dan is whewn students were supposed to be skilled enough to avoid seriously injuring each other because kumite was and still is in some dojos, done without any protective gear whatsoever.

[DWx]

It seems odd to say the least. To me understanding techniques and strategies requires being able to use them in a live context and not just through rehearsed drills.

The type of kumite taught was limited to controlled drills gradually building up to more spontaneous action. 4th Dan is whewn students were supposed to be skilled enough to avoid seriously injuring each other because kumite was and still is in some dojos, done without any protective gear whatsoever.

I can understand wanting to prevent injury but IMHO controlled, lower intensity free sparring would still be beneficial before reaching 4th dan.

[sensei8]

If one didn't engage in Kumite until 4th Dan, then, I believe that a 4th Kyu could best a 4th Dan.

Imho!!

[Nidan Melbourne]

Perhaps it was stipulated in his insurance plan?

I know here in Australia, nearly all insurers have plans for Martial Arts Schools that request the level of contact (Chance of Injury) that will occur during class. As such a Kyokushin School would be a Full Contact School therefore a higher premium, whilst say a Taichi school would be non-contact.

As far as I'm aware my sensei has listed as semi full contact. As when he first opened his school he didn't have many adult students and couldn't afford the higher costs of insurance, also the location we rent from have in a way a say about full contact vs. semi full contact.

Apparently the insurance we have requires them to be notified if we ever do full contact sparring (i.e. what Kyokushin does) well in advance, and to have first aiders on hand. Personally of Which i do not mind

[JR 137]

According to my former Sensei, his insurance stipulated that sparring could not be done without a black belt instructor present. There was a brief time period where another student and I ran classes on Friday night as brown belts. Class sizes were pretty low on Friday night during that time, so my Sensei ran classes at his other dojo where it was a popular night. We were allowed to do kumite drills, hit pads, etc., but not free sparring with gear on.

The first Friday after I was a shodan, we turned it into a full kumite class. Numbers went up pretty quickly, my Sensei took it over (supply and demand), and it eventually turned into "Bare knuckle Friday," which became several of ours' favorite class.

[JR 137]

But as to the true intent of the topic...

I don't think it's truly as bad as some make it out to be. With the right teacher teaching the right drills the right way, the "no free sparring until yondan" could be more a matter semantics than anything else. Did guys like Funakoshi, Miyagi, Chibana, Uechi, et al did free sparring as we're defining here, or did they teach situational sparring? I'm not quite sure/convinced they said "ok, attack however you want, and have your partner defend however he wants for 2 minute rounds." They had the idea (justly or unjustly) that the karate they were teaching was too dangerous for competition. Uechi reportedly stopped teaching for quite a while after one of his students killed another man using techniques he taught him. It makes me doubt those guys let anyone other than their senior-most students square off and really go at it. They most likely did a wide variety of full contact uke drills as seen in the documentary Tee: The Spirit of Okinawan Karate.

Remember, Mas Oyama broke away from the "traditional" style of teaching/practicing karate and brought in full contact free sparring. He wasn't very popular among the core group of teachers for doing so, and he learned from several of the first generation of teachers after the founders, such as Gogen Yamaguchi, So and Funakoshi's son (and possibly Funakoshi himself). If it's true that he was the first to openly do that and with all of his students, what was going on beforehand?

[Spartacus Maximus]

Indeed, JR 137.

The instructor mentioned in the original post is of the older generation and a senior student of Chibana. Besides the "no sparring/kumite" until 4dan, there was no context to clarify exactly what this means.