Differentiated opinions between examiners

[Melau]

Currently I'm training for my Sandan. In the Netherlands examinations for Dan grades are organized nationally, and so are many of the preperation trainings for these exams.

The further I've gotten in my karate career, the more I notice that fewer people have the knowledge about the curriculum, but the more they have to say about it / differ in opinion. I'm at a point where on the one hand I know I have to find my personal way in the style, but also want to know more and more about the details and original way of doing things. But many of the high graded examiners within my country have different opinions on how things need to be performed / excecuted.

Anybody else had similar experiences and if so, how did you deal with it?

[sensei8]

If one wants tomatoes, then, they have to go to a tomato vender. Same thing in the MA world: if one wants rank, then they have to succumb to the governing body that awards rank.

It sucks, I know, but that's just the way its been for as long as I can remember.

The SKKA is the governing body of Shindokan Saitou-ryu, and if one wants to earn rank from it, they'll have to adhere to the SKKA's Testing Requirements.

Having said that, if any examiner from the SKKA is of differing ideologies and the like, they can keep them to themselves because our Soke made it perfectly clear as to the exacting measures of the curriculum and the like, and this is transitions into any Testing Cycle.

How an examiner teaches Shindokan is one thing, but to not bow to the exacting measures as the Soke has laid them out isn't acceptable, nor is it tolerated.

[Spartacus Maximus]

They may not agree on the minor details but they should agree on the core if they are evaluating and grading other people within the same system. Otherwise there is no point in having a governing body of any kind. This is an all too common issue when evaluation is done by a national governing body such as in most European countries.

In the end, the only judgement that truly matters is that of one's own teachers and the opinions of those one can trust.

[JackD]

I think I understand where you're coming from, I've had this internal debate for a long time also.

I've found this highlighted a lot studying katas. You look at different sources, books and videos, and there are always little (sometimes big) variations, and even within my own organisation different instructors will be wanting things done slightly differently. And they seem to become more pronounced as you reach the higher katas!

It can be frustrating for me that there isn't one exactly correct way of doing things, but then again perhaps karate as a human activity can never be "one box fits all".

I've come to the conclusion that if you're studying Wado (as I am) then the absolute correct way to perform kata is the way that Hironori Otsuka did it (

).

If I want to grade then I need to adjust them to how my grading instructor tells me it's supposed to be performed.

When I'm in the dojo I do it the way my sensi tells me.

When i'm in my own space then I do kata the way that feels right and good for me.

Could that even make me a more flexible karateka?

Very best of luck with your sandan training.

[Nidan Melbourne]

I think I understand where you're coming from, I've had this internal debate for a long time also.

I've found this highlighted a lot studying katas. You look at different sources, books and videos, and there are always little (sometimes big) variations, and even within my own organisation different instructors will be wanting things done slightly differently. And they seem to become more pronounced as you reach the higher katas!

It can be frustrating for me that there isn't one exactly correct way of doing things, but then again perhaps karate as a human activity can never be "one box fits all".

I've come to the conclusion that if you're studying Wado (as I am) then the absolute correct way to perform kata is the way that Hironori Otsuka did it (

).

If I want to grade then I need to adjust them to how my grading instructor tells me it's supposed to be performed.

When I'm in the dojo I do it the way my sensi tells me.

When i'm in my own space then I do kata the way that feels right and good for me.

Could that even make me a more flexible karateka?

Very best of luck with your sandan training.

Well with kata you will never get the correct way of doing a particular kata. Look at Bassai Dai and the number of variations there are across all the styles. The people that created those styles and incorporated that one kata adjusted accordingly by what they were taught and the practicality of what the techniques they wanted in it.

From your post IMHO you make contradictory comments by saying that there is an absolute correct way of doing kata. But then you go on to say that you do it the way that feels right and good for you at home. So by your original logic you would be doing it wrong.

Flexibility as a karateka for kata it often boils down to knowing the variations but adjusting to the needs and requirements for you and everyone you teach and train with.

With instructors within clubs and organisations will always want particular things that may be slightly different to what the CI wants. For instance my sensei for the kata Seisan you do predominatly sanchin dachi and shikodachi, whilst his 2IC teaches the same kata with more tsuri ashi dachi (drag foot stance) over sanchin dachi

[JackD]

I think I understand where you're coming from, I've had this internal debate for a long time also.

I've found this highlighted a lot studying katas. You look at different sources, books and videos, and there are always little (sometimes big) variations, and even within my own organisation different instructors will be wanting things done slightly differently. And they seem to become more pronounced as you reach the higher katas!

It can be frustrating for me that there isn't one exactly correct way of doing things, but then again perhaps karate as a human activity can never be "one box fits all".

I've come to the conclusion that if you're studying Wado (as I am) then the absolute correct way to perform kata is the way that Hironori Otsuka did it (

).

If I want to grade then I need to adjust them to how my grading instructor tells me it's supposed to be performed.

When I'm in the dojo I do it the way my sensi tells me.

When i'm in my own space then I do kata the way that feels right and good for me.

Could that even make me a more flexible karateka?

Very best of luck with your sandan training.

Well with kata you will never get the correct way of doing a particular kata. Look at Bassai Dai and the number of variations there are across all the styles. The people that created those styles and incorporated that one kata adjusted accordingly by what they were taught and the practicality of what the techniques they wanted in it.

From your post IMHO you make contradictory comments by saying that there is an absolute correct way of doing kata. But then you go on to say that you do it the way that feels right and good for you at home. So by your original logic you would be doing it wrong.

Flexibility as a karateka for kata it often boils down to knowing the variations but adjusting to the needs and requirements for you and everyone you teach and train with.

With instructors within clubs and organisations will always want particular things that may be slightly different to what the CI wants. For instance my sensei for the kata Seisan you do predominatly sanchin dachi and shikodachi, whilst his 2IC teaches the same kata with more tsuri ashi dachi (drag foot stance) over sanchin dachi

I was being a little flippant really, I meant that as I'm studying Wado the right way to do it would be the way Hironori Otsuka intended it to be done! Although in his book in places he suggests to play around with parts of kata.

[Nidan Melbourne]

I think I understand where you're coming from, I've had this internal debate for a long time also.

I've found this highlighted a lot studying katas. You look at different sources, books and videos, and there are always little (sometimes big) variations, and even within my own organisation different instructors will be wanting things done slightly differently. And they seem to become more pronounced as you reach the higher katas!

It can be frustrating for me that there isn't one exactly correct way of doing things, but then again perhaps karate as a human activity can never be "one box fits all".

I've come to the conclusion that if you're studying Wado (as I am) then the absolute correct way to perform kata is the way that Hironori Otsuka did it (

).

If I want to grade then I need to adjust them to how my grading instructor tells me it's supposed to be performed.

When I'm in the dojo I do it the way my sensi tells me.

When i'm in my own space then I do kata the way that feels right and good for me.

Could that even make me a more flexible karateka?

Very best of luck with your sandan training.

Well with kata you will never get the correct way of doing a particular kata. Look at Bassai Dai and the number of variations there are across all the styles. The people that created those styles and incorporated that one kata adjusted accordingly by what they were taught and the practicality of what the techniques they wanted in it.

From your post IMHO you make contradictory comments by saying that there is an absolute correct way of doing kata. But then you go on to say that you do it the way that feels right and good for you at home. So by your original logic you would be doing it wrong.

Flexibility as a karateka for kata it often boils down to knowing the variations but adjusting to the needs and requirements for you and everyone you teach and train with.

With instructors within clubs and organisations will always want particular things that may be slightly different to what the CI wants. For instance my sensei for the kata Seisan you do predominatly sanchin dachi and shikodachi, whilst his 2IC teaches the same kata with more tsuri ashi dachi (drag foot stance) over sanchin dachi

I was being a little flippant really, I meant that as I'm studying Wado the right way to do it would be the way Hironori Otsuka intended it to be done! Although in his book in places he suggests to play around with parts of kata.

I know in books the old masters have suggested that every kata will be done slightly differently. But you also have to admit that the way that Otsuka Sensei would do kata works for him, but not necessarily for everyone else.

Because kata is a very deep thing, as such you can never be shallow when it comes to studying it and the same goes for karate as a whole. Wastelander for example kindly has shown us a number of variations of Naihanchi that has been taught is quite high.

But then again IMHO doing a kata the way you were taught and what works for you physically should be taking precedence. Obviously there are schools that have butchered kata to the point that you can't recognise what should be a recognisable kata. I have seen the Goju-Ryu Kata Seipai absolutely butchered when it should be different.

I have previously read that the kata are meant to be a framework for you to interpret and the modify to each persons physical needs, as what Miyagi Sensei had done with his students. For example look at how Gogen Yamaguchi and Morio Higoanna perform the same kata, but they both have some minor differences but are essentially the same. Yamaguchi Sensei learnt from Miyagi-Sensei, but Higoanna Sensei enrolled at the latters school a year after his passing.

So at the end of the day there is no 'right' way of performing kata, if that was the case then there would be a lot of arguments saying that their way was the correct way. Just look at Suparempei it appears in both Goju-Ryu and Shito-Ryu, by your logic what is the correct version?

[sensei8]

They may not agree on the minor details but they should agree on the core if they are evaluating and grading other people within the same system. Otherwise there is no point in having a governing body of any kind. This is an all too common issue when evaluation is done by a national governing body such as in most European countries.

In the end, the only judgement that truly matters is that of one's own teachers and the opinions of those one can trust.

Solid post!!

[sensei8]

Opinions...we've all got them. However, when it comes to opinions at the testing cycle...again...keep it to yourself. In Shindokan, our By-Laws were written by our Soke, and even though it's been amended, the testing cycle hasn't been; adhere to it or don't. And if you don't...guess what...you'll be removed for cause.

[Spartacus Maximus]

There is nothing really wrong about different instructors of the same system within the same organization having different opinions about minor details. What matters is that they agree on the core and teach the same thing.

People naturally personalize what they learn and different instructors emphasize different aspects. The important thing is that they teach the whole system and ensure that the students learn it correctly to the best of their ability.