Conciliatory gestures to a defeated opponent.

[Wado Heretic]

Was going to put this in sport martial arts originally, but it is a matter effecting me as an instructor so it has found it's way here.

When I competed; I never expected congratulations off a defeated opponent, nor did I ever offer them in defeat. Nor did I ever offer my hand for a hand shake or other such gesture; I always bowed as mark of respect to the floor, my opponent, and the judges, then got off the competition area.

I always felt it disrespectful to offer congratulations or conciliatory gestures; as it came across as a gesture that might as well have said "I did not want to win as much as you", and some what cheapened the meaning of the competition. Why beat someone, stand in the way of what they wanted, to then apologise for doing so?

Anyway; I was at a competition recently overseeing one of my students compete, and when he was defeated he bowed off, as I insist upon, but did nothing else but leave the floor. The coach of the winner made a point of insisting I was failing to teach good sportsmanship, by not directing my student to congratulate the person who had defeated him.

I only have one dojo kun; practice sincerity. Be sincere with what your karate is, with your effort in training, with yourself about the quality of your karate, and do not judge others by what their karate is but by the sincerity of their effort. I do not see it as right for me to order my students to show false modesty, or make such gestures, as I am not sure they have a place in karate; I cannot tell my students to feel feelings of good will to the person who defeated them.

Anyway; that is my position. However, what do others think; are such gestures simply part of being a good sportsman, and should one as a couch insist upon them?

[Lupin1]

Idk. I'm of the opinion that it is good to teach the kids to offer congratulations to the person who won. You're not saying "thank you for defeating me" or "you must have wanted to win more". You're genuinely saying congratulations-- that person happened to play better than you in that match. Doesn't matter who wanted it more-- the winner showed more skill.

If a coworker gets a promotion over you at work, you can't always just huff off into the other room. Oftentimes you have to congratulate that person, show them goodwill (even if you don't always feel it), and continue to have a working relationship with them.

It's the way of the world.

Even in professional sports, you'll often see the loser congratulate the winner. Look up "Sherman congratulates Brady". You know Sherman wasn't happy to lose, but he congratulated the other team anyway because it was the professional, respectful thing to do.

If it helps, rather than "congratulations" maybe "good match" with a hand shake may work. A hand shake is basically a western equivalent of the bow-- showing respect and no hard feelings. And, honestly, your kids shouldn't have hard feelings against the person who beat them as long as it was a fair match. Healthy rivalry is one thing, but you can still respect your rival. Ill will is another thing entirely and is a matter of mindset. If your kids do harbor ill will against someone who beat them, they need to be taught to have a different mindset-- that it's not the other person's fault and that the reason your student lost is that they didn't have as good a match as the other person. You shouldn't blame the winner for winning.

[DWx]

Idk. I'm of the opinion that it is good to teach the kids to offer congratulations to the person who won. You're not saying "thank you for defeating me" or "you must have wanted to win more". You're genuinely saying congratulations-- that person happened to play better than you in that match. Doesn't matter who wanted it more-- the winner showed more skill.

If a coworker gets a promotion over you at work, you can't always just huff off into the other room. Oftentimes you have to congratulate that person, show them goodwill (even if you don't always feel it), and continue to have a working relationship with them.

It's the way of the world.

Even in professional sports, you'll often see the loser congratulate the winner. Look up "Sherman congratulates Brady". You know Sherman wasn't happy to lose, but he congratulated the other team anyway because it was the professional, respectful thing to do.

If it helps, rather than "congratulations" maybe "good match" with a hand shake may work. A hand shake is basically a western equivalent of the bow-- showing respect and no hard feelings. And, honestly, your kids shouldn't have hard feelings against the person who beat them as long as it was a fair match. Healthy rivalry is one thing, but you can still respect your rival. Ill will is another thing entirely and is a matter of mindset. If your kids do harbor ill will against someone who beat them, they need to be taught to have a different mindset-- that it's not the other person's fault and that the reason your student lost is that they didn't have as good a match as the other person. You shouldn't blame the winner for winning.

This is my feelings on the topic. I always meet the other competitor on the mat and shake hands, whether I win or lose. It's a congratulations to them if they win, a sign of mutual respect and thanks them for the match. In fact even at high level tournaments in my style it is very unusual for competitors not to shake hands.

In our tournaments it is also customary for the competitor to shake the hands of the opposing coach before going back to their corner.

[sensei8]

Respect begets respect! The intent must be pure, and nothing else! Otherwise, the words exchanged will be lost, and unfounded!!

Therefore, do/say what's on YOUR heart, and be not lead by those who's examples offend you!!

[JR 137]

This is not a knock to Wado Heretic in any way, shape or form...

When everything went your way and you win, it's very easy to show respect to your opponent. When you gave it your all and you came up short to an opponent who's better than you, it's still somewhat easy.

When nothing went your way, you had a horrible showing, and you got your butt whipped by someone who shouldn't have lasted a minute against you, how you handle it really shows what you're made of.

Win or lose, I almost always had the same expression on my face - bow (if MA competition), shake hands and say good match/game, shake the other coach's hand and say something similar, and walk away. Don't rub it in, don't sulk. Act like you've won before, you expected to win, and you'll win again. When it happens, act like you can handle the loss and will do everything to make sure it won't happen again.

When it's over, it's over. You can't get it back. The only time congratulated someone was when a wrestling opponent I was friendly with beat me to go on to the state tournament. He was so much better than me and got robbed our junior year of high school. I wrestled one of the best matches I ever wrestled and hung with him for longer than I thought I could, but I just wasn't good enough. It stung, but I knew the better wrestler won.

[Spodo Komodo]

I'm not Japanese, I'm English and old fashioned enough to feel it necessary to congratulate my opponent for their sportsmanship, win or lose. I realise that this may not be the norm within the MA subculture but I certainly don't see it as being disrespectful in any way.

It isn't totally alien to Asian culture either, when I lived in a Zen community I was expected to congratulate anyone who bested me in debate for the lesson I received. It isn't being subservient or diminishing the victory, it is about not letting defeat sow a seed around which the ego can weave a false image. Of course, you have to really mean it...

[Nidan Melbourne]

To me it is respectful to shake hands after each round and congratulating the other person. If you won you just be humble and say good job. If you lost you say congratulations and both move on.

One person i went head to head with over the last couple of years, he always offered advice afterwards

[mazzybear]

As always it's each to their own, everyone is free to do as they please but, in my personal opinion I think it's also necessary to show that respect to your opponent. I always make a point of shaking my opponents hand after a match, win or lose, I feel it's just common courtesy. Even if I feel things should've went more my way, I smile and say well done. I wouldn't embarrass myself or my instructor by being petulant enough to turn my back and walk away. I competed in an all styles Kata competition last year, I was on the floor second, I watched my opponent do her thing and then took to the floor myself, when I was finished, I bowed to the referee and left the floor but, as I was leaving I noticed my opponent had her back turned and apparently had so my entire Kata. I have to say, this infuriated me, she (in my opinion) showed nothing but disrespect with that action and I took maximum offence at it. Overreaction? I don't know, perhaps, someone else my not read much into it but, I sure took offence at it. It's something I hadn't seen up until then but, I'm seeing more and more of it now and it really bothers me. Massively more so than someone not shaking my hand would.

Mo.

Ps She won the round but, I still shook her hand

[Hawkmoon]

Kyokushin has rules, real honest to goodness rules about a 'fighters' behavior when they win or when they loose.

Sosai wanted utmost and 100% complete respect to be demonstrated by all to all no matter what the outcome!

A winner can be stripped of there win if they are 'in your face' for example!

I sat a referees coarse last year and it was made very clear that a fighter can and should be punished for disrespectful behavior.

This was also described to be a extended to a coach as well, by there actions punish there fighter!

For me respect and humility costs nothing, but gains you so so much more in the eyes of others and their opinion of you.

To be good or even the best is not enough, you have to be a good person, and right or wrong many/most decide if you are a good person if you are humble (good natured) in victory as you are in defeat!

One action will mark you one thing or the other for many years, as a manager of a sales team once said:

A happy customer will tell two or three of there friends about there experience, an unhappy customer will go around telling all there friends and even complete strangers about how bad things were!

[Spartacus Maximus]

The term "opponent" is part of the answer. It clearly establishes the situation as a sporting competition, which by its very nature is bound by the rules agreed upon. Fairplay and good sportsmanship must be adhered to by all parties.

Courtesy and respect apply to both sides and ought to be expressed with the appropriate gesture whether it is a handshake, a bow or anything else. The fact that it is a "combat/fighting" sport is not an excuse to be obnoxious, rude or try to purposely and viciously destroy the other person. One is facing an opponent fighting to win a match, not an enemy hell-bent on bloody murder.

If sportsmanship and fairplay are expected in tennis, they are also expected in combat sports. Even in a karate match, some things and behaviours are just not cricket.