How can I respect your school?

[bushido_man96]

I get it. I'm a very "against the tide" kind of person, I don't know why and often wish I play nice better. I teach traditional martial arts yet I do a great deal of things my way, I don't let tradition hamper my program in any way, or at least try not to. I agree we get too hung up on it in martial arts for sure.

My idea about what makes this OK or not OK though has nothing to do with that, and more the politics. As martial artists we all know rank is subjective, your 1st Dan isn't always my 1st Dan and so on. I belong to no organozation, or at least none that dictate my curriculum as a standard. So what is the measure of my standard. It's my experiences, not yours, or sensei8, or anybodies right? The same, I doubt it BUT I'll bet there's not as big of a gap as could be in some places.

My only problem here is that from the paperwork standpoint, you will carry rank in kenpo (sorry my phone keeps deciding how to spell it, it's kenpo as I know it) and if all you have to do is be a student of tang soo do or even a mixed art, to get any rank in kenpo what does this do in the long run. I mean, here the line on so and so facebook. "Derick so and so " is a 1st degree black belt in tang soo do, and a 1st degree black belt in kenpo karate as well. This points out the lack of a true depth to somebodies rank.

Your points here are valid. I also think it is somewhat of a political move, and I can understand it from a business stand point, especially in trying to retain an established student base to keep a business running. I'm not saying I would do it the same way, but I can see why he's trying to do this. Hopefully, he does it the right way, and pulls folks along to establish them in the new style, as well as their current style.

I'm a "rank is subjective guy" but not a "rank means nothing" guy. There's a bug difference and that kenpo specific rank means nothing until they earn it.

I agree with that.

Starting at white is easier for some then others bit it's a test of character, it's a lesson and journey of growth. If I walk into a kenpo place, a shotokan karate place, an ata taekwondo place I don't expect any rank for my hard work, not because I practice tang soo do which is a derivative of shotokan, not because I practice WTF style the kwon do, or whatever. I wouldn't want the rank because rank looks good on paper, but it's the actual training that I'd be after.

I'm of the same opinion that you are here; I'd be looking for the training, and not necessarily the rank (once again, rank doesn't matter, until it does). But, there are lots of egos out there, and they tend to be tender, and this can cloud the vision of some.

This is the biggest lesson that misses most that practice martial arts and I really dislike that about the arts. In many ways rank is more damaging IMHO then good, or at least it's a close issue.

Yes, many do miss it. I think that's why a lot of black belts quit after attaining it. They assume they've "made it," and there's nothing left. I think there comes a point in the journey where a student has to stop seeking the goals set by instructors and have to start looking into achieving goals they find from inside themselves.

[bushido_man96]

I'm actually glad that I started at white, I had this worry when starting back up that the school would want to place me into an advanced rank and I didn't want to do that. If I was going to learn something new I wanted to start back at zero and that's what I got, so it worked out well. I also have the benefit of no one having to know about my experience unless I tell them, I like that because it allows me to take my time learning the new material without high expectations being placed on me.

I agree with you here, about starting over at white. That was one of the things I liked about my brief stint in Aikido, being a beginner again.

The only time I'd have an issue with someone with much experience starting over would be in similar styles when it comes to competition settings. I think at times that can be unfair to a true beginner in the Arts. But other than that, I'm a big fan of the white belt.

[Hawkmoon]

I voted no, which I accept is a little stark/cold to me to be perfectly honest.

Likewise, I could not in good honest and open faith say be a grade and walk into a different dojo (discipline) and suddenly be the highest rank or a senior rank (possibly the only one that is not a teacher) and be able to teach and represent the system and Ryu you just walked into.

there is a certain amount of respect demanded by humility that needs to be given just because its the civil and polite thing to do.

For example, in our dojo we have some guys form Tang-Soo-Do work with us, they wear the grade they earned in there dojo. Which means they wear there blackbelts. (dark blue)

We want them to wear the grade, they earned them, they worked for them and clearly they have the right to wear them!

They are respected for the grades they are, but they have no say in the way the dojo is run, nor do they attend any meetings we hold.

Likewise when we visit them we are shown respect for the same reasons and likewise we have no say in the way they run there dojo nor do we attend there meetings.

To take the example to extremes,be a shodan, nidan san dan in Judo.

now walk into a Shotokan school, and out rank the head instructor .... do you dislodge them and teach shotokan karate with all your judo skills?

Clearly not, you are respected for your rank, but will be placed along side the students and taught like any other student how to fight the Shotokan way!

So can you take your grade to another school?

Yes. There honor should afford you the respect humility demands you are shown.

can you stand up as the senior grade when you are there?

No. Humility/honour demands you show the same level respect!

[JR 137]

I voted no, which I accept is a little stark/cold to me to be perfectly honest.

Likewise, I could not in good honest and open faith say be a grade and walk into a different dojo (discipline) and suddenly be the highest rank or a senior rank (possibly the only one that is not a teacher) and be able to teach and represent the system and Ryu you just walked into.

there is a certain amount of respect demanded by humility that needs to be given just because its the civil and polite thing to do.

For example, in our dojo we have some guys form Tang-Soo-Do work with us, they wear the grade they earned in there dojo. Which means they wear there blackbelts. (dark blue)

We want them to wear the grade, they earned them, they worked for them and clearly they have the right to wear them!

They are respected for the grades they are, but they have no say in the way the dojo is run, nor do they attend any meetings we hold.

Likewise when we visit them we are shown respect for the same reasons and likewise we have no say in the way they run there dojo nor do we attend there meetings.

To take the example to extremes,be a shodan, nidan san dan in Judo.

now walk into a Shotokan school, and out rank the head instructor .... do you dislodge them and teach shotokan karate with all your judo skills?

Clearly not, you are respected for your rank, but will be placed along side the students and taught like any other student how to fight the Shotokan way!

So can you take your grade to another school?

Yes. There honor should afford you the respect humility demands you are shown.

can you stand up as the senior grade when you are there?

No. Humility/honour demands you show the same level respect!

Regarding the Tang So Do people in your dojo, it seems they're more like guests in the dojo than formal students of your sensei/members. Perfectly fair for guests to wear their rank and uniforms. I'm assuming they're not there for instruction so much as to work out with a different group and share ideas?

I'd assume if one of them became a dues paying member and/or wanted to officially become a Kyokushin student in your dojo, they'd be expected to wear a Kyokushin gi and a belt presented to them by your CI.

Or am I off here?

[sensei8]

To be honest, I wouldn't want to keep my rank starting at a new school. When I was serving with AmeriCorps I tried a TKD dojo for about a month. At first I wore a white belt, but then they insisted I wear my (at the time) green belt from Isshinryu.

I didn't like it. People started expecting me to know things in TKD that I didn't know, I felt like people were always judging me to see if I "deserved" a green belt, it messed up the pecking order of the class a bit, and I didn't get that feeling of "working my way up" that helps structure those beginning steps into a new martial art.

Really the only benefit I saw to it was in partner work where it told people they could go just a little bit harder with me and served as a reminder to me that I wasn't a normal beginner (when I was wearing a white belt I found myself going too hard with the yellow belts because they were higher than me. It was harder to keep in mind they had only been doing martial arts for a few months while I had several years experience).

Solid post!!

[JR 137]

To be honest, I wouldn't want to keep my rank starting at a new school. When I was serving with AmeriCorps I tried a TKD dojo for about a month. At first I wore a white belt, but then they insisted I wear my (at the time) green belt from Isshinryu.

I didn't like it. People started expecting me to know things in TKD that I didn't know, I felt like people were always judging me to see if I "deserved" a green belt, it messed up the pecking order of the class a bit, and I didn't get that feeling of "working my way up" that helps structure those beginning steps into a new martial art.

Really the only benefit I saw to it was in partner work where it told people they could go just a little bit harder with me and served as a reminder to me that I wasn't a normal beginner (when I was wearing a white belt I found myself going too hard with the yellow belts because they were higher than me. It was harder to keep in mind they had only been doing martial arts for a few months while I had several years experience).

Excellent points. Regarding partner work...

It becomes very obvious who's who once you start sparring. I went into my current dojo as a white belt, and everyone knew I had studied before once we got going. In the locker room, few of them asked me where I studied and for how long. Walking out, 2 others asked, saying "you don't move like a white belt." After a few months, one of the yondans swept me during sparring, saying "I don't treat you like a yellow belt because you don't fight like one."

Not to pat myself on the back by any means; others have walked in and I could easily tell they've had previous experience too. "The proof is on the floor" meaning the color of the belt doesn't mean much.

[Nidan Melbourne]

IMHO I feel like it is inappropriate for people from one style to leave and join another style but keeping their rank from their own style.

Especially if the difference of the styles is obvious. To me it is like me going from Goju to Shotokan, where they are distinctly different and keeping the same rank. But I would have a lot to learn and re-train before anything else.

Transferring schools within' the same style then it is ok. but changing styles is a no no for me.

If it was just training for maybe a once off type of thing, then it would be different but not for long term. As in if i went to say Wastelanders Dojo, and did a session or two with him and his sensei whilst travelling around America. But would still ask if it was ok to wear my belt for those limited sessions or not.

[Luther unleashed]

To be honest, I wouldn't want to keep my rank starting at a new school. When I was serving with AmeriCorps I tried a TKD dojo for about a month. At first I wore a white belt, but then they insisted I wear my (at the time) green belt from Isshinryu.

I didn't like it. People started expecting me to know things in TKD that I didn't know, I felt like people were always judging me to see if I "deserved" a green belt, it messed up the pecking order of the class a bit, and I didn't get that feeling of "working my way up" that helps structure those beginning steps into a new martial art.

Really the only benefit I saw to it was in partner work where it told people they could go just a little bit harder with me and served as a reminder to me that I wasn't a normal beginner (when I was wearing a white belt I found myself going too hard with the yellow belts because they were higher than me. It was harder to keep in mind they had only been doing martial arts for a few months while I had several years experience).

Excellent points. Regarding partner work...

It becomes very obvious who's who once you start sparring. I went into my current dojo as a white belt, and everyone knew I had studied before once we got going. In the locker room, few of them asked me where I studied and for how long. Walking out, 2 others asked, saying "you don't move like a white belt." After a few months, one of the yondans swept me during sparring, saying "I don't treat you like a yellow belt because you don't fight like one."

Not to pat myself on the back by any means; others have walked in and I could easily tell they've had previous experience too. "The proof is on the floor" meaning the color of the belt doesn't mean much.

I agree about the sparring/partner work that "the proof is on the floor"! Sensie8 it really fits don't sue me lol.

The being "swept by another student". We have a rule and iys that no sweeps are allowed unless you are a black belt and you must sweep a black belt. Part of this is because we are not on mats, we are on a gym floor, so sweeping should be done with some experience. Has it been coming for you at places you have trained to sweep one another? Just curious.

Bushido pointed it out that in sparring it matters and will really show. I personally never got into much sport aspect of my training, so.times I wish I had but just never been my thing. Last time I was at a tournament I was there because my wife was competing

[Hawkmoon]

Regarding the Tang So Do people in your dojo, it seems they're more like guests in the dojo than formal students of your sensei/members. Perfectly fair for guests to wear their rank and uniforms. I'm assuming they're not there for instruction so much as to work out with a different group and share ideas?

Almost correct!

To share ideas is a two way street, its promoted in our dojo, a in honour to Sosai Oyama who drove the idea and tasked his Shihans to do the same .

I'd assume if one of them became a dues paying member and/or wanted to officially become a Kyokushin student in your dojo, they'd be expected to wear a Kyokushin gi and a belt presented to them by your CI.

Or am I off here?

Correct!

If they wish to the door is open, always is, to them or anyone else! To add, two of them have fought with us in tournaments and the same two have started to follow our dress code!

They are still permitted to wear there rank, as I said before they have earned them they worked harm for them, they are show the same level of respect any 'shodan' etc is shown in the dojo, but as they are not 'graded' by/as kyokushin there are are limits, the BB meetings for example are not open to them.

We work with them to the level, to the ends and desires they wish, and it seems to me that they are working towards earning a full Kyokushin grade at some point of some kind, in this there is no limit, all they have to do is take the test!

[JR 137]

To be honest, I wouldn't want to keep my rank starting at a new school. When I was serving with AmeriCorps I tried a TKD dojo for about a month. At first I wore a white belt, but then they insisted I wear my (at the time) green belt from Isshinryu.

I didn't like it. People started expecting me to know things in TKD that I didn't know, I felt like people were always judging me to see if I "deserved" a green belt, it messed up the pecking order of the class a bit, and I didn't get that feeling of "working my way up" that helps structure those beginning steps into a new martial art.

Really the only benefit I saw to it was in partner work where it told people they could go just a little bit harder with me and served as a reminder to me that I wasn't a normal beginner (when I was wearing a white belt I found myself going too hard with the yellow belts because they were higher than me. It was harder to keep in mind they had only been doing martial arts for a few months while I had several years experience).

Excellent points. Regarding partner work...

It becomes very obvious who's who once you start sparring. I went into my current dojo as a white belt, and everyone knew I had studied before once we got going. In the locker room, few of them asked me where I studied and for how long. Walking out, 2 others asked, saying "you don't move like a white belt." After a few months, one of the yondans swept me during sparring, saying "I don't treat you like a yellow belt because you don't fight like one."

Not to pat myself on the back by any means; others have walked in and I could easily tell they've had previous experience too. "The proof is on the floor" meaning the color of the belt doesn't mean much.

I agree about the sparring/partner work that "the proof is on the floor"! Sensie8 it really fits don't sue me lol.

The being "swept by another student". We have a rule and iys that no sweeps are allowed unless you are a black belt and you must sweep a black belt. Part of this is because we are not on mats, we are on a gym floor, so sweeping should be done with some experience. Has it been coming for you at places you have trained to sweep one another? Just curious.

Bushido pointed it out that in sparring it matters and will really show. I personally never got into much sport aspect of my training, so.times I wish I had but just never been my thing. Last time I was at a tournament I was there because my wife was competing

To be honest, I'm not sure about the sweeping rule during sparring. Pretty sure it's for black belts to do to other black belts. The rule I do know is don't throw anything you haven't been taught to do, and don't throw anything you can't fully control. I haven't seen any kyu grades get swept outside of prearranged 1 step sparring (we call them self defenses) where sweeping is part of it.

The 4th dan who swept me sweeps a lot of black belts. You'd never know it from looking at him either. He's been in an accident and has pretty much permanently lost a lot of motion in his back and knees. He's so good at it, he sweeps like its his job. I think I'll start calling him the custodian lol.

I threw a kick, and before I touched down, he grabbed my shoulder and swept my plant foot out from under me. I had that look on my face that everyone who sees it for the first time thinks I'm mad at them. In the locker room he said "sorry if I ticked you off when I swept you. I don't spar against you like a yellow belt because you don't fight like a yellow belt." I laughed and said "I was mad at myself for getting swept; do it every time if you want to." Another 4th dan laughed and said "careful what you wish for; he can sweep anyone at any given moment!"

Forgot... We don't have mats either. Hardwood floors. Our CI's logic is mats teach you you don't have to fall 100% properly. In intermediate self defenses, we do a ton of sweeping. If I can find a video of it, I'll post it; they're standardized in the Seido curriculum.