Sparring - bad advice from sensei?

[LastKing]

That's exactly my ethos, Sensei. For me, karate is not just about self defence, it's about self respect. When I first started, I remember reading a warning somewhere against sports clubs which practiced a whole Westernized version of karate which stripped away the beauty of the practice for either a wholy self defence form or a competition form. I came to karate from a yoga/tai chi/zen meditation background (though also with some boxing years before) and as such, hold great store in karate's ability to mold the character, not just the physique and offensive ability.

Again, thanks for the input.

[Kusotare]

"Shiai" or sport kumite is not necessarily western thing.

In fact it's huge Japanese varsity circles.

What you are describing is "showboating" or gamesmanship.

I personally don't go for it much - I'd rather focus on practicing good techniques and form, but despite recent efforts to curb such displays on the mats - it still happens.

As some have already said - it can also backfire on you.

Can I ask, what part of the world are you in?

K

[wayneshin]

As it happens, I was reading Karate tournament rules just the other day. Here is the relevant section.

"XVIII.An example of MUBOBI is the instance in which the contestant launches a committed attack without regard for personal safety. Some contestants throw themselves into a long reverse punch, and are unable to block a counter.

 

Such open attacks constitute an act of Mubobi and cannot score.

 

As a tactical theatrical move, some fighters turn away immediately in a mock display of dominance to demonstrate a scored point. They drop their guard and lapse awareness of the opponent. The purpose of the turn away is to draw the Referee's attention to their technique. This is also a clear act of Mubobi. Should the offender receive an excessive contact and/or sustain an injury the Referee will issue a Category 2 warning or penalty and decline to give a penalty to the opponent."

."[/i].

This is an exact quote from the current WKF rules. From memory it sits within the "explanation" section.

The type of behaviour described by the OP was common in WKF in the 90s but has almost been stamped out.

[LastKing]

Kusotara, I'm in the UK. It's pretty rural here, so the club's tend to be small and not too thick on the ground. Our paticular club, though part of a bigger organisation (though by no means big in the wider karate world), only started about a year and a half ago. I was there at the off, and have thoroughly enjoyed it, and feel great loyalty to it.

Dark Ranger, thanks for that. It's good to hear that it's been cracked down on.

Edited October 1, 2019 by LastKing

[DaveB]

Just further proof that karate instructors are just people, not the great bastions of morality and virtue that is in the advertising.

Gamesmanship occurs in most sports to some degree or another. Everyone has seen football players rolling around on the grass hoping for a free kick or penalty.

Karate tournament is nothing more than a game and so winning is the ultimate aim. If you are into that side of karate expect to encounter it. That this stuff happens is one of many reasons not to take sports karate too seriously.

Personally it would not be my choice to conduct myself in that way in a tournament and if my opponent did then the match might get a little heated.

If it were my instructor telling me such things they would not be my instructor for long.

[Bulltahr]

Just further proof that karate instructors are just people, not the great bastions of morality and virtue that is in the advertising.

Gamesmanship occurs in most sports to some degree or another. Everyone has seen football players rolling around on the grass hoping for a free kick or penalty.

Karate tournament is nothing more than a game and so winning is the ultimate aim. If you are into that side of karate expect to encounter it. That this stuff happens is one of many reasons not to take sports karate too seriously.

Personally it would not be my choice to conduct myself in that way in a tournament and if my opponent did then the match might get a little heated.

If it were my instructor telling me such things they would not be my instructor for long.

I enjoyed your post Dave, has made me think, "Sport" karate and traditional karate, are they mutually exclusive, can someone who practises traditional karate be competitive in Open tournaments.......

One mindset says beat the other guy any way possible and the other says you are competing against yourself.

Interesting topic.

[sensei8]

Just further proof that karate instructors are just people, not the great bastions of morality and virtue that is in the advertising.

Gamesmanship occurs in most sports to some degree or another. Everyone has seen football players rolling around on the grass hoping for a free kick or penalty.

Karate tournament is nothing more than a game and so winning is the ultimate aim. If you are into that side of karate expect to encounter it. That this stuff happens is one of many reasons not to take sports karate too seriously.

Personally it would not be my choice to conduct myself in that way in a tournament and if my opponent did then the match might get a little heated.

If it were my instructor telling me such things they would not be my instructor for long.

I enjoyed your post Dave, has made me think, "Sport" karate and traditional karate, are they mutually exclusive, can someone who practises traditional karate be competitive in Open tournaments.......

One mindset says beat the other guy any way possible and the other says you are competing against yourself.

Interesting topic.

I'm traditional, yet from 1964 to 1990 I competed in open tournaments quite often; I did very well. From 1964 - 1977, I competed in Open Tournaments every single week, and from 1977 - 1984, I competed in Open Tournaments once a month, and from 1984 - 1990, I competed in Open Tournaments once per quarter. My last tournament was the 1990 Bakersfield California All Open Tournament where I took home 4 Grand Championships and one 1st Place trophy(s). During all of those years I competed, I never once did what the OP speaks towards; I didn't need to. If I lost, I lost, and if I won, I won!!

[Wado Heretic]

Following the spirit of the rules versus following the word of the rules; as stated, gamesmanship exists in all sports. Those people, who follow only the word, will find ways to exploit human frailties to their benefit. A well conducted karate tournament should demonstrate the principle of never losing, rather than of winning. One should aspire to the spirit of the rules, which is of fair play, and demonstrating that one who is truly capable can win without any factor beyond superiority in technique.

It is poor competitive advice as it flies in the face of both the word of the rules and the spirit of the rules, and if it makes you uncomfortable, than I would suggest finding another dojo/club.

End of the day though, good technique will usually over come such tactics, because someone who focuses on such tactics has divided his focus between actual technique and gamesmanship. I never struggled in my competitive career to beat anyone employing such tactics, because I just focused on having good basics.

[JR 137]

Just further proof that karate instructors are just people, not the great bastions of morality and virtue that is in the advertising.

Gamesmanship occurs in most sports to some degree or another. Everyone has seen football players rolling around on the grass hoping for a free kick or penalty.

Karate tournament is nothing more than a game and so winning is the ultimate aim. If you are into that side of karate expect to encounter it. That this stuff happens is one of many reasons not to take sports karate too seriously.

Personally it would not be my choice to conduct myself in that way in a tournament and if my opponent did then the match might get a little heated.

If it were my instructor telling me such things they would not be my instructor for long.

I enjoyed your post Dave, has made me think, "Sport" karate and traditional karate, are they mutually exclusive, can someone who practises traditional karate be competitive in Open tournaments.......

One mindset says beat the other guy any way possible and the other says you are competing against yourself.

Interesting topic.

I'm traditional, yet from 1964 to 1990 I competed in open tournaments quite often; I did very well. From 1964 - 1977, I competed in Open Tournaments every single week, and from 1977 - 1984, I competed in Open Tournaments once a month, and from 1984 - 1990, I competed in Open Tournaments once per quarter. My last tournament was the 1990 Bakersfield California All Open Tournament where I took home 4 Grand Championships and one 1st Place trophy(s). During all of those years I competed, I never once did what the OP speaks towards; I didn't need to. If I lost, I lost, and if I won, I won!!

Did you compete in the All-Valley Under 18 Karate Tournament in '84? I saw that tourney on TV.

Sorry, couldn't help it. Being from the valley and competing during that time.

[Th0mas]

There is another point worth considering, irrespective of whether your dojo's main focus is competition (and they should clearly set the context between tactics that work for point scoring vs those for self defence or the "art" ) that show boating for a point is a very bad habit to get into.

It sets the wrong mindset, and if it becomes habitual, you'll do it when it is not only inappropriate ( like in a continous fight completion) but also down right dangerous, such as a self defence situation.

There is a big enough challenge with normal practice of kumite ( such as with 1-step ) to break the habit of stopping after you have countered with your "killer blow" without having to unlearn stupid sport behaviours. Karate should be about, taking control and then dominating, dominating and dominating until your opponent is defeated. This is a flow that has to become habitual.. Stopping to show the judge that you have scored is massively counter productive.

My advice is don't do it. Being super aggressive and relentless is much more effective psychologically both in self defence and also competition. Anything else is just martial art movie stuff...