Sparring - bad advice from sensei?

[LastKing]

He's not our regular sensai, but rather, a guest sensai, so to speak, and, quite frankly, an unsettling and somewhat disruptive figure at our dojo. I'm just orange belt, and as such still very much in the learning curve, but one of the many things I'm not sure about is his insistence that while sparring we should "take the point" - that is shout and raise an arm and generally let the judges know when we've scored a point.

I read once, somewhere, that this is not a good thing to do. Not only is it poor etiquette, but also, allows the oponent an opportunity to strike. The way he demonstrates I find very boorish, and against my own personal ethos. He explains that not only is it necessary because a judge will sometimes miss a strike (fair enough, such things are bound to happen, but if they miss my strike, they are just as likely to miss my opponent's, thus evening things up), but crucially for me, he says we should use it to intimidate a weaker judge to give points which we may not actually have landed.

Am I right in thinking this is bad advice and contrary to the correct ethos of karate?

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Edited October 1, 2019 by LastKing

[sensei8]

Have you spoke about this with your Sensei? I'd make that my first place to visit. I don't like, nor do I appreciate the advise this guest Sensei is providing. For one, doing as he suggests might get one disqualified quite quickly; it's down right uncalled for!!

[Bulltahr]

I'm with Sensei8 on this one also, speak with your Sensei. This "Guest" instructor seems to have a different moral compass than what I would suggest most Karatekas would prefer to see in our sport/lifestyle. Sounds like he needs a lesson from Master Ken!

[JR 137]

Talk to your sensei about it. He/she may not know it's happening and may want to know about it. Don't go in complaining and demanding that the instructor be dealt with though.

Politely inform your sensei, and leave it at that. If you don't like the way it's handled from there, that's another ball of wax.

For the record, only an idiot would say what he's saying. Reminds me of a soccer coach telling his kids to knock the ball down with their hands if it went over their heads while defending when I was refereeing. I stopped play, went over to the coach and politely informed him that an intentional hand ball is an automatic red card (thrown out of game, team plays short handed, and the kid has to sit the next game). I told him I'd give him one too because his player was following his instructions. His response - "We're awful; we've got to compete somehow!" My response - "they're 7 years old, you're supposed to teach them how to play the game instead of how to cheat to stay competitive." Some people just don't get it.

[Darkranger85]

As it happens, I was reading Karate tournament rules just the other day. Here is the relevant section.

"XVIII.An example of MUBOBI is the instance in which the contestant launches a committed attack without regard for personal safety. Some contestants throw themselves into a long reverse punch, and are unable to block a counter.

 

Such open attacks constitute an act of Mubobi and cannot score.

 

As a tactical theatrical move, some fighters turn away immediately in a mock display of dominance to demonstrate a scored point. They drop their guard and lapse awareness of the opponent. The purpose of the turn away is to draw the Referee's attention to their technique. This is also a clear act of Mubobi. Should the offender receive an excessive contact and/or sustain an injury the Referee will issue a Category 2 warning or penalty and decline to give a penalty to the opponent."

Part of the scoring is based on keeping your attention on your opponent, ready to counter his moves if they come.

I believe they use the term "Zanshin" for one of the scoring criteria.

"Zanshin is described as a state of continued commitment in which the contestant maintains total concentration, observation, and awareness of the opponent's potentiality to counter attack. Some

 

contestants after delivering a technique will turn their body partially away from the opponent but are still watching and ready to continue the action. The Judges must be able to distinguish between this continued state of readiness and one where the contestant has turned away, dropped their guard and concentration, and in effect has ceased fighting."

So, I'm just a karate newb, but I believe it sounds like poor advice too me.

[sensei8]

The bold type above, whether the bold type is provided by them, or by yourself to emphasis an important point within the rules tells everyone and everything they need to know about the matter at hand, and they don't encourage, nor do they approve of such acts!!

[Darkranger85]

I'd like to add about intimidating judges into giving points.

First of all, I highly doubt the judges are intimidated by the contestants. But, I have never been to a tournament so that's just my opinion.

But, one of my dojos things is "Sincerity, Honesty, Integrity."

I would never want to win a match through such tactics. And any sensei that actively teaches dishonest methods is not a sensei at all. IMHO

[sensei8]

For nothing, it's a regular practice of MLB catchers to "sell the catch"!! MLB umpires, especially those who are behind the plate, are quite accurate, yet they do make mistakes from time to time. At times, the catcher sells the catch by "where the catchers glove 'IS' in relationship to the plate".

A skilled MLB catcher might catch the ball just outside of the "Strike" zone, but with all that's going on, the catcher can sell a "Strike" call from the umpire by moving his glove back into the "Strike" zone, when in actuality, the ball was caught in the "Ball" zone.

If the umpire's just not completely sure for whatever reason(s) if the pitch was or wasn't a "Ball" or a "Strike", the umpire will see/look that the catchers glove is in the "Strike" zone, and that sells the catch.

How does the catcher sell the catch?? Instead of just throwing the ball right back to the pitcher, he HOLDS his glove in the "Strike" zone, and maintains the posture, like a statue, not moving a muscle, long enough for the behind the plate umpire to make the call. And no, not every sell earns a "Strike" call, however, the catchers gamble earns much more "Strike" calls than "Ball" calls!!

[LastKing]

Thanks for the input, guys.

Edited October 1, 2019 by LastKing

[sensei8]

I don't envy the position that you're in; related to one another, well, that's a no-win scenario.

If you're considering in leaving the club, it's never an easy choice at all. I believe your reasons are founded across the board. Can't learn where conflicts resides, and will continue to reign.

Sounds to me that both your Sensei and the guest Sensei are more profound with sports karate, and winning at all costs, no matter how it plays out, and in that, traditional karate, or the downright Karate in itself is placed on the back burner, and shall remain there for quite some time. That's there decision, and while I might not approve of their overall mindset, I must, and will respect their decision from afar.

I tell my students to NOT whine about the point calling because what is called has been called and we're not going to disrespect anyone for the sake of a point and/or the glory of a trophy. We are the brand of Shindokan, therefore, we'll accept and respect any and all calls, no matter what we may or may not feel. We'll not disgrace Soke and/or Dai-Soke by performing less than honorable tactics on and off the floor, and for NO REASON(S) WHATSOEVER!!

It's just not worth it!! Missed/incorrect calls are PART of the beauty of competition, and truth to be known, whenever I was a judge, center or not, I ignored tactics like the ones your Sensei/Guest Sensei support, and I'd not award a point(s) because it's dangerous to turn ones back, and it's a disgrace, imho, to make an over-the-top gesture(s) for any reason(s).

Shugyo...roughly that means...suck it up, and ACCEPT the call with honor!!