Bunkai = Knowing How to Move?

[cathal]

There is some amazing conversation here! I really enjoy reading everyone's opinions and ideas. This said I must say that to say Kata in general teach one to move is unfair.

- There is a belief kata is all about teaching combat during the most used & predictable lines.

- There are those who argue katas are the performance aspect of their system and don't think twice.

- There is reason to argue that kata is mostly about bunkai and thus for education and training.

- An old sempai once admitted she believed kata were filler content for training, used solely for developing muscle memory.

- A good friend of mine once said they were mechanisms for meditation and vehicles for higher consciousness.

- I read a book claiming kata were merely an evolution of dances. Like Highland dancing, for example.

As for me, I think all of these things can describe kata. Some I agree with and others not so much. The point is that we do them, and we do them often, even using them to demonstrate our skill during rank examination. Why take something that seems performance-related or obsolete and train students in it generation after generation? There are secrets to be learned, insights to be gained, and experimentation to be had. In any sense the kata is critical to my personal training regimen. For each one I learn I believe I gain more knowledge and even challenge what knowledge I already have.

Does kata help me move? Yep. But there is so much more.

[Nidan Melbourne]

Regarding knowing how to move....there is no time in a real confrontation to think, or practice rehearsed moves. You either react well or react poorly. Real confrontations are messy, attacks come in obtuse angles, one is often off guard or surrounded by objects or people...

The idea of Bunkai is inflated, that if dude X does Y, you do Z. Its more like it happens and at the end of it there is an outcome.

This is why kata became prevalent. There is no thinking or rehearsal that will help in a real confrontation. It all happens fast!

This is different from restraint, where your job is to bounce, or run in store security from shoplifters. That is restraint and follows more of a plan, but that even falls apart in reality.

Knowing how to move the body is all you have. Hope this helps clarify.

For example, the gedan barai (low block) in Tekki Shodan/Naihanchi is clearly explained to be an arm bar by Gichin Funakoshi. Whilst it is important to develop skill with that technique in static and then live training, you must also develop the principles relating to that technique too. Especially when training in live-based sparring as you might not be able to perform the technique exactly, however you can still use the principles learned from them.

I cannot see how practicing just the solo kata gives you the skill (of timing and distance) to move your body effectively in a real confrontation. And even if it did, then why do kata have arm movements? If the kata shows an age uke or a gyaku zuki or a manji uke, why does it matter? why are there hand motions in the kata at al if all the kata are about is moving the body?

Yes it may have been described by Funakoshi Sensei to be an arm bar. BUT are you going to restrict yourself to just using it as an armbar? NO you're not going to, because you may not see it that way. Every technique in every single kata there is has more than 1 usage. Look at the humble Age Uke (upper block), yes you can use it as the block as the name suggests but you can use as a strike (ie to the jaw) or as a setup for an arm bar.

Also when you said "And even if it did, then why do kata have arm movements?" it is the same as me going to you "Then why does kihon have leg movements?" When you move your BODY it is not restricted to your legs, trunk & head BUT YOUR ENTIRE BODY THAT INCLUDES ARMS + LEGS

Kata is a template for learning skills that you can use instead of just practicing individual techniques. But it (Kata) is not meant to be giving you the skills for a realistic situation. Because timing and distancing are two skills that will vary person to person and have to be developed.

Every kata has techniques (obviously, DUH!!!) that assist in teaching and training techniques and movements that you can use. But every movement has the correlated leg movement be it a step or a turn which can be used. And also have hard and soft variations of it + ensure that you can learn to judge how hard to hit. Even some movements you are able to use as evasion to prevent being hit from an attacker hence why many kata have you go on various angles.

So kata gives you the tools and possibilities of usage of the same technique in so many different ways. But so many techniques in kata you won't necessarily use in relation to a situation like kumite or a self defense situation. But training in kata will assist in training you to move in a way to assist in setting up a better line of attack or skill.

At my dojo, we not only practice Bunkai which is set by my sensei but also we practice kyogi kumite which we create ourselves which is based from kata. So we use this as a way that we can explain the kata from our perspective and use them to exhibit how you can use techniques in a self defense situation. Why do we do kyogi kumite? because every person is unique so they see movements in kata very differently and have a different use for it. But also their physiology is different as in injuries that inhibit movement or general restrictions etc.

[Davis]

I think that my view of kata and bunkai is not a product of my training. Kata are usually performed with attention to mechanics, to solidify basic technique. The bunkai seem like an endless inquiry, with some teachers focusing on certain things, and no one really certain what the original intention was. My concept of bunkai as applied movement is based on this freedom of movement concept which underlies this approach to karate.

Free flowing karate movement with application is probably what I am talking about. Lets look at something simple. The first movement of something like Bassai dai. How does one analyze this? Is it a breaking through a circle of attackers? Is it a simple, direct, whole body attack, while lowering one's body to gain stability? What is this movement? For me, the more I worked it, it seemed like a way to drop down, to store energy for recoil into the next 4 movements, which are simple blocks. So I conceive of this as yang, contraction. I conceive of the next movements as yin, expansion. I contract, then I expand. Contraction stores energy, expansion releases it. Storing energy in the joints, a winding feeling with unwinding as the next movement set. There is no application in this per se, it simply shows us how to drop, store energy, then turn to quickly release it.

Do I call this pre-WW2 karate? Do I call it my contribution? The latter seems rather ostentatious. The former seems vague. But something, to me, in karate became too rigid. Shigeru Egami (not my style, I practice Shito Ryu) hints at this. Ueshiba emphasizes this. Chinese boxing internals, maybe Tsin Yi or Lo Cup, Pa Kua, maybe they approach it. Something in karate happened along the way.

One thing is the start and stop, instead of flowing movement. The other is closing the fist. When we close our fist, we cut off energy, that is my observation. Its like somewhere, as karate was assimilated into university student training to popularize it, it became rigid. Tight. Explosive. I don't feel good when I practice this way. Or to be more accurate, I practice the kata under my teacher's supervision in the classic way. But when I stay with that, I don't like how I feel. I need to relax the joints and flow from movement to movement.

How does this relate to bunkai? Am I just dancing? Maybe. But my experiments with it over the years (with endless patience of lower belts being tossed around the dojo), show that the flowing movement in karate, the contraction and expansion, gives almost unlimited bunkai. So the bunkai arises out of the movement, not in a pre determined form, but in spontaneous action. So the bunkai and the movement are the same.

What is upper rising block? Jodan uke? Funakoshi remarked that in his 80s, he finally understood the meaning of it. What did he refer to? One poster says that it is a strike, I do see it that way as well. It begins as a block. Then over time, we see that it can be used to trap the attackers arm, by moving downward and clearing the attacking limb. Then, later, I found it was Sen, as they strike, I release the Jodan uke which intercepts their attack, displacing it and striking.

It is like hitting. First the hips, like a boxer. Then the figure 8 of the hips, with recoil. Then, abdominal compression.

Bunkai, then in this way, is a natural extension of free body movement. I think I make this more complicated than it is. There are only so many ways a body can move. Freedom of movement is having a good repertoire of body motion, which responds to the attack. There is not so much, if he does X, I do Y, more a responsive, spontaneous element. I ignore fighting when I do bunkai, but I am absorbed in it completely. If I contract, expand, circle, compress, etc....then I can be fully in the moment. The problem with bunkai without freedom of movement is that it is static.

[LeighSimmsMA]

Indeed, but given the length of time that Otsuka spent with the likes of Funakoshi, Mabuni and Motobu - it is unlikely that he learnt any of said "bunkai applications" in any great depth.

This could well be true, but that doesn't change the fact the kata he was taught had bunkai to them.

Perhaps this is where terminology becomes skewed - but I saw what Suzuki sensei did a oyo (or Ohyo as they call it in Wado) that's not quite the same as Bunkai.

Without getting into semantics, Suzuki clearly demonstrated "kata applications".

I hoping this whole thing has not been a misunderstanding on my behalf and what I mean by bunkai and what others mean. To be clear by Bunkai I mean "kata applications performed with a partner". Yes, I know bunkai doesn't technically mean that, but it is universally known as such.

If the Shoto, and Goju lot are doing Bunkai - then we all should!?

Not at all, but we shouldn't say something never existed just because we chose not to train it.

Yes it may have been described by Funakoshi Sensei to be an arm bar. BUT are you going to restrict yourself to just using it as an armbar?

Of course not, the point I was making was that the kata have practical applications and are not just there for teaching “movement”.

Also when you said "And even if it did, then why do kata have arm movements?" it is the same as me going to you "Then why does kihon have leg movements?" When you move your BODY it is not restricted to your legs, trunk & head BUT YOUR ENTIRE BODY THAT INCLUDES ARMS + LEGS

I disagree. To answer simply, my kihon has legs movements (and the same movements as the kata) because those movements have practical applications. The different stances show how to put weight into a technique or how to disrupt and break the opponents posture. Everything I do, I have a direct practical application for.

The point I was trying to make is that approach taken by Davis does not (at least to me) explain why the kata movements are exactly the way they are and not any other way. I will discuss this below in more detail when I get to Davis Bassai Dai Application.

Kata is a template for learning skills that you can use instead of just practicing individual techniques. But it (Kata) is not meant to be giving you the skills for a realistic situation. Because timing and distancing are two skills that will vary person to person and have to be developed.

I agree that timing and distancing are two skills that vary person to person and need to be developed and kata cannot do that! That is why I can’t fathom how kata viewed at as teaching movements can develop fighting skill!

If you are talking about kata as being just the solo form I agree it is not meant to be giving you the skills for a realistic situation This is why live practice is needed. I see kata as a process

- Learn the Kata form

- Learn the 2 Person Drill for the movements in the form (what I call bunkai)

- Learn the principles that make the application work

- Practice those principles in a live environment

Kata in of itself, is a way of recording the physical techniques in a solo form and on their own they are not enough.

The first movement of something like Bassai dai. How does one analyze this? Is it a breaking through a circle of attackers? Is it a simple, direct, whole body attack, while lowering one's body to gain stability? What is this movement? For me, the more I worked it, it seemed like a way to drop down, to store energy for recoil into the next 4 movements, which are simple blocks.

What I fail to agree with you is that by looking at kata in this way you are contradicting all the historical evidence that kata have directly applicable applications.

Secondly, in my view of the first move of the kata (which I think is best to video record and upload here for clarity) uses all the motions of the kata – the footwork, direction, hand positions etc.. Everything has a purpose that is needed to make the technique work. What I fail to grasp is if the kata is showing how to lowers one body to gain stability, why are the hand positions the way they are, why is one closed and open, why do they start to the side and swing across, why does the foot movement project forward and not straight downwards, why are the feet crossed. If all you are doing is to drop down to recoil energy, why is it recorded in the way it is and not some other way? (I think there would be more direct and efficient ways to achieve your outcome).

Secondly, even if you were right, I do not see how practicing the kata (and in specific this motion) will develop physical fighting skill. I see no link here what so ever.

My approach outlined above in response to Melbourne’s comment, clearly shows a logical approach in which the applications of the kata when practiced and the principles understood can then be used directly and indirectly in live practice to create physical combative skill.

[Kusotare]

Indeed, but given the length of time that Otsuka spent with the likes of Funakoshi, Mabuni and Motobu - it is unlikely that he learnt any of said "bunkai applications" in any great depth.

This could well be true, but that doesn't change the fact the kata he was taught had bunkai to them.

Agreed, but to an extent from a Wado perspective anyway, it didn't (and still doesn't) really matter what the traditional Okinawan bunkai may have been for any given kata, as Otsuka had his own ambitions in terms of what core principles and concepts he wanted to promote from the moves and movements of the kata.

And in a nutshell, this was driven by Otsuka's background in Koryu bujutsu rather than Okinawan karate.

Perhaps this is where terminology becomes skewed - but I saw what Suzuki sensei did a oyo (or Ohyo as they call it in Wado) that's not quite the same as Bunkai.

Without getting into semantics, Suzuki clearly demonstrated "kata applications".

I hoping this whole thing has not been a misunderstanding on my behalf and what I mean by bunkai and what others mean. To be clear by Bunkai I mean "kata applications performed with a partner". Yes, I know bunkai doesn't technically mean that, but it is universally known as such.

Not wishing to derail this thread but whilst "Bunkai" and application may have come to mean the same thing these days, they have some important differences.

More typically form an analysis point of view, I see what Suzuki does as "Kaisetsu" or literally a "commentary" of any given technique within a kata using an opponent.

It is a realisation of the technique in its "omote "or surface level form. But that is just about it.

If the Shoto, and Goju lot are doing Bunkai - then we all should!?

Not at all, but we shouldn't say something never existed just because we chose not to train it.

"Bunkai" as I understand it - is more a process of dismantling and organically growing from there.

From a Wado perspective this holds very little value as there brings with it a risk that one will migrate away from the core principles and concepts for which the practice of any given kata is its raison d'etre

K

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

Interesting discussion. Kata without study of its application is...letters (as in alphabet) not used to create words...IMHO

Here is an article that summs up my view better than I could:

http://goju-ryu.blogspot.de/2015/04/i-cant-believe-he-said-that.html

I understand that there might be other benefits of Kata, as pointed out by others here, but those benefits are byproducts of the Katas prime function: preserve the core of a fighting system.

[jaypo]

I think of Kata as the alphabet to Karate. Karate being the language, and Kata being the letters that make it up.

In the first kata I learned in Shotokan, there are a bunch of basics- gedan block, step punch. Turn, block, hammer fist, step punch. Etc. The literal bunkai says that you're blocking a low strike to the left, punching, turning and blocking another. But you can do so much more with that movement. After the punch, a grab of the gi with the punching hand can be turned into a throw to the right with the swinging of the arm to gedan block. Bassai dai- literal- double block into a T stance, turn, outer forearm block. Creative- strike and grab, hip toss.

My point is that I don't think kata was designed for only 1 type of bunkai. Look at Abernathy and Didier. Both of their interpretations of the same katas provide different applications, but they're based on the same movements. I think the difference between a "karate student" and a "karateka" is that they can see those things and create techniques that work on their own.

[Davis]

I agree with the last statement, that there are many applications. It would be interesting to see how the kata were devised. There is not much discussion of this.

I do not think that my view of kata is the same as the founders of the styles. I do believe that they intended practical application, no doubt about it. What I am saying is we can take the kata and develop movement.

Getting back to bassai dai. The opening move really makes little sense. Its an awkward and bizarre way to fight. We never see this in hand to hand combatives, MMA or any other applied fighting. Its potential lies, for me, in learning unusual ways to move, ways which we would not happen upon simply engaged in boxing.

Kata presents an opportunity to increase one's repertoire of movement. Remember, karate is a small piece of kung fu, a derivative. To understand kata, we need to go back to Pa Kua, Lo Cup, Shaolin and many traditions which used movement as a form of meditation and combat. If we really dig, at the heart of Chinese boxing are the internals, such as the Pin Yin, or the internal family. When we make karate a fighting art, purely we lose all of this content, what is also called Neijia. This to me is the most important aspect of kata, the internals. Through the internals, the fighting skills develop, but one is not focusing on self defense, but rather cultivation of the spirit.

I don't think many teachers view it this way. There is an antagonism between Chinese origins and karate, nationalism is part of it, I am certain. But when karate developed, as a result of the colloquium of masters such as those discussed above, they abstracted elements of a greater system. They did not do this alone, Okinawan arts had their own history, and not much Neijia was preserved. Although when I see the "cat" beneath the waterfall, I cannot help but contemplate what he was doing there!

If we strip kata down to applications only, I think we lose most of their value. If one wants to fight, then one should spend time fighting. I do not think kata is the best way to develop hand to hand skills. Battlefield training is, Krav Maga comes to mind. But how far can this take one? Where will the rewards be when one is 80 years old? It would be sad to see the kata completely lose their connection to Neijia, and this is happening. Notice how many people flock to yoga, Tai Chi and aikido who are interested in this internal aspect of things. I believe karate has this but has lost its way. One does not need a Tai Chi class to learn to move gracefully, slowly. My thoughts were informed by my work with life threatening illness, working with HIV, MS, cancer and other patients. I saw karate change abilities, and make movement possible again in many people. I did neglect to comment on the origins of my movement based approach. It happened over the years I spent teaching adapted karate to people with disabilities. I saw its therapeutic potential, then took the path from there. My own Sensei, who I still train with after 30 years, has now gone on to Aikido and holds a 6th dan. It is sad that so much of this is lost in kata now.

Internals does not invoke the idea of ki necessarily. I am not sure I believe in chi, or ki. But I do believe in freedom of movement. Bruce Lee, someone who is quoted far beyond his station in things, even professes this, to let go of fixed form. Kata can provide the foundation to let go of fixed form.

[Davis]

Oh and in response to GojuRyu above, yes absolutely, kata do preserve a historical fighting system. I like to think of each kata, such as Matsumura Rohai, as a system. If one masters this kata, then one fights this way. I do believe that the higher kata preserve tradition. Absolutely. I guess I am saying that we can take it further. I know that sounds a bit much, that some nubbin here in Canada can take kata further then the masters who possess far more knowledge than I will ever have. But I do think they are missing the boat.

[sensei8]

Interesting discussion. Kata without study of its application is...letters (as in alphabet) not used to create words...IMHO

Here is an article that summs up my view better than I could:

http://goju-ryu.blogspot.de/2015/04/i-cant-believe-he-said-that.html

I understand that there might be other benefits of Kata, as pointed out by others here, but those benefits are byproducts of the Katas prime function: preserve the core of a fighting system.

Very nice!! Thanks for sharing that!!