a weird pet peeve I have about martial arts

[bushido_man96]

I read in a book a while back that a certain branch of TKD wanted to start referring to people 4th dan and above as master. Their thinking was looking at it like a job, you have master mechanics, master plumbers, etc. They looked at it that way, it was a level of achievement more than a reference of actual knowledge or ability. One can be a master mechanic but still attend many classes in a year learning new things.

This is kind of how I look at it. In our association, 3rd dan is an instructor, 4th dan is a Jr. Master Instructor, and 5th dan is Master Instructor. We don't really have a Master that isn't an instructor, so the titles kind of stay together. Whether that's by design or not, I don't know. But that's how I look at it. I don't know that I could consider myself a true "master."

[armanox]

It is my understanding that the titles "Master" and "Grandmaster" came more from Korean martial arts vs Japanese or Chinese.

When I train at my friends Hapkido school, example, his instructor I would refer to as "Master Borucki" because that title comes with his rank, and it is considered the appropriate etiquette to refer to him that way. Likewise, I would refer address Grandmaster West as either "Grandmaster West" or "Master West" due to their protocol. But we do not, in karate or Aikido, refer to anyone as Master whoever as that title does not exist for Japanese and Okinawan martial arts. We might reference Takeshi Miyagi or Seikichi Iha as being a "grandmaster" of Shorin Ryu (both hold the title of Hanshi which I remember translating as something like "Model individual"), but we address to them as Sensei when attending class with them or talking about them with others.

TL,DR: When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

[sensei8]

Imho,

Master is just a word! It's how it affects you when you hear it, read it, say it, and how you respond to it.

[DaveB]

Interestingly my pet peeve is the false or over inflated modesty particularly present in Shotokan that makes students unable to progress because of some vague idea of perfection that they can never achieve.

It's that level where they will magically understand what kata mean and be able to use them even though they spend all their time working out how to wiggle their hips just so after yet another seminar on basic technique.

I've seen it in other places but Shotokan is built on it. If people stopped bowing to the notion of 20 years of training to learn how to punch and kick, the Traditionalist dojo's around the world would empty.

[sensei8]

Interestingly my pet peeve is the false or over inflated modesty particularly present in Shotokan that makes students unable to progress because of some vague idea of perfection that they can never achieve.

It's that level where they will magically understand what kata mean and be able to use them even though they spend all their time working out how to wiggle their hips just so after yet another seminar on basic technique.

I've seen it in other places but Shotokan is built on it. If people stopped bowing to the notion of 20 years of training to learn how to punch and kick, the Traditionalist dojo's around the world would empty.

Solid post!!

[bushido_man96]

Interestingly my pet peeve is the false or over inflated modesty particularly present in Shotokan that makes students unable to progress because of some vague idea of perfection that they can never achieve.

It's that level where they will magically understand what kata mean and be able to use them even though they spend all their time working out how to wiggle their hips just so after yet another seminar on basic technique.

I've seen it in other places but Shotokan is built on it. If people stopped bowing to the notion of 20 years of training to learn how to punch and kick, the Traditionalist dojo's around the world would empty.

Solid post!!

Yes, solid post, indeed. You put it very straightforward, but it speaks volumes.

[chiliphil1]

Interestingly my pet peeve is the false or over inflated modesty particularly present in Shotokan that makes students unable to progress because of some vague idea of perfection that they can never achieve.

It's that level where they will magically understand what kata mean and be able to use them even though they spend all their time working out how to wiggle their hips just so after yet another seminar on basic technique.

I've seen it in other places but Shotokan is built on it. If people stopped bowing to the notion of 20 years of training to learn how to punch and kick, the Traditionalist dojo's around the world would empty.

I think you have a point here, however I would argue that experience does make one better. Not that anyone would ever achieve perfection but someone who has been doing the same punches and kicks for 20 years should certainly be better at it than someone who has say 2 years of experience.

With that said I do think that the traditionalist schools loose a lot of students because of the reputation of basics whereas TKD schools seem to attract people in droves because the style is more "fun" with all the jumping and spinning. The TKD schools seem to advance very quickly as well which I think also helps them to retain students, long term traditional school attendees in my opinion are the ones whom have decided to pursue a life in the martial arts, they are not the ones looking for a workout or a sport..

and as far as modesty goes, there is nothing wrong with that, I would think most high ranking dans would not go bragging about how good they are, instead they would only tell you how much more they have to learn.

[hansenator]

someone who has been doing the same punches and kicks for 20 years should certainly be better at it than someone who has say 2 years of experience.

That is undoubtedly true but after 2 years of good training your basic punches and kicks should be at a functional level. You should continue to practice and improve them of course but I think you reach a level of diminishing returns where you can put in a huge amount of time to make your punch a tiny bit better. Maybe some of that time would be better spent working on other areas.

[vaporman]

Took 4 years to get some good boxing skills having none prior, that's everyday or close to it, injuries are best avoided..if i continue yes it will become more efficient for sure but the learning curve varies? probably,maybe regardless the more you put in it the more you get out simple put 100 % or close and you will be amazed what a human body can do or not do.. most basics can be learned in a year of anything and any subject,, maybe less maybe more but yea

[bushido_man96]

someone who has been doing the same punches and kicks for 20 years should certainly be better at it than someone who has say 2 years of experience.

That is undoubtedly true but after 2 years of good training your basic punches and kicks should be at a functional level. You should continue to practice and improve them of course but I think you reach a level of diminishing returns where you can put in a huge amount of time to make your punch a tiny bit better. Maybe some of that time would be better spent working on other areas.

I agree here as well. There is a point of diminishing returns, and time is better spent improving other skills to augment the ones already gained.

With that said I do think that the traditionalist schools loose a lot of students because of the reputation of basics whereas TKD schools seem to attract people in droves because the style is more "fun" with all the jumping and spinning. The TKD schools seem to advance very quickly as well which I think also helps them to retain students, long term traditional school attendees in my opinion are the ones whom have decided to pursue a life in the martial arts, they are not the ones looking for a workout or a sport..

Some TKD schools may advance through colored belt ranks quicker than some Karate styles, but they make up for that on the black belt end, where most TKD styles have set times between each black belt rank before becoming eligible to test. I would also add that there is so much more to TKD than sport. Its still a traditional Martial Art, with many of the same basic techniques as Karate styles. It does offer the added physical challenge of jumping and spinning techniques, yes, but proficiency in that area does not come without having good, solid foundations in basic techniques.

and as far as modesty goes, there is nothing wrong with that, I would think most high ranking dans would not go bragging about how good they are, instead they would only tell you how much more they have to learn.

No, there is nothing wrong with being modest. But when someone constantly insists or alludes to that fact that they are "modest," then it becomes a bit much. Some become so modest that they become indignant towards the idea of becoming a higher rank.