ever seen a belt taken away?

[sensei8]

Never seen that be done. Not that I would mind if that practise became more common. But it should be for the right reasons and with the right arguments!

I agree! Albeit, the reasons and the arguments are those of the governing body/CI/ETC, and once that decision has been made, nothing can be done!!

[cathal]

I'd say it's a very serious action. One that cannot be taken lightly and explained in full detail after the appropriate consideration.

[bjones0727]

I grew up in a do jang where the instructor practiced this. Others were right that it was rarely, if ever, an adult. Usually children for misbehaving (not only in class but at home/school as well) and also for disrespecting parents. They were treated as a white belt until they were able to align their attitudes and write an apology letter to whomever the incidents concerned. Then they were allowed to receive back their belt and continue working on their level techniques. If this meant the child lost the belt for a month, and in return, was unable to test next cycle, then so be it. Ultimately, it was the martial artist's choice as to how they behaved and the consequences, good or bad, were to follow.

[ninjanurse]

I never take away that which was earned...but I will not advance a student who cannot uphold the responsibilities of their rank and the expectations of the dojo.

[Wado Heretic]

Personally; I am against the taking away of a belt, as I consider them something earned, and as something that reflects the knowledge and standard the student should be at. One cannot take away that knowledge or skill; only the student can lose it by laziness and lack of attentiveness.

When I taught children; I did used to run a regular grading every four months, and I would stop someone grading for behavioural reasons or would fail them on a grading for misbehavior. However, that is not something I would do with an adult. An adult who cannot regulate their behaviour, I have just refused to continue teaching, and have barred them from attending. One cannot be harsh with children.

The closest I have come to taking away rank, is when someone stopped and was a way for a while but returned. I would ask them to wear a white belt, until the opportunity to regrade them came along. I would usually give them five sessions, or until up to the next scheduled grading depending on what seemed more suitable for the case, and if they were up to the standard expected of their former grade I would allow them to return to wearing their former colours. On rare occasions I did find a reason to grade them to above where they stopped so I feel it was a pretty fair approach.

I would never take away a belt; however, that is due to my approach to teaching and philosophy regarding the matter. Yet, for a club specifically designed for children, where learning discipline is one of the goals; then it might be a useful tool to someone running such a club.

Edit: I can also see the reason for an association or organisation to remove rank recognition from a senior member, for disciplinary reasons, and to preserve there own reputation in the case of severe misconduct. Point being that such an action is to reflect an attitude, which much sometimes regretfully be done, rather than actual discipline. Politics, but we cannot avoid them on times.

[sensei8]

Personally; I am against the taking away of a belt, as I consider them something earned, and as something that reflects the knowledge and standard the student should be at. One cannot take away that knowledge or skill; only the student can lose it by laziness and lack of attentiveness.

When I taught children; I did used to run a regular grading every four months, and I would stop someone grading for behavioural reasons or would fail them on a grading for misbehavior. However, that is not something I would do with an adult. An adult who cannot regulate their behaviour, I have just refused to continue teaching, and have barred them from attending. One cannot be harsh with children.

The closest I have come to taking away rank, is when someone stopped and was a way for a while but returned. I would ask them to wear a white belt, until the opportunity to regrade them came along. I would usually give them five sessions, or until up to the next scheduled grading depending on what seemed more suitable for the case, and if they were up to the standard expected of their former grade I would allow them to return to wearing their former colours. On rare occasions I did find a reason to grade them to above where they stopped so I feel it was a pretty fair approach.

I would never take away a belt; however, that is due to my approach to teaching and philosophy regarding the matter. Yet, for a club specifically designed for children, where learning discipline is one of the goals; then it might be a useful tool to someone running such a club.

Edit: I can also see the reason for an association or organisation to remove rank recognition from a senior member, for disciplinary reasons, and to preserve there own reputation in the case of severe misconduct. Point being that such an action is to reflect an attitude, which much sometimes regretfully be done, rather than actual discipline. Politics, but we cannot avoid them on times.

Solid post!! I understand the context as well as the content of what you're saying, and in that, it's personal to you, as it should be.

We've never taken away the belt itself because that's personal property, and to do so, imho, is akin to stealing...NOT ON MY WATCH!! The taken of "belt/rank" is an Administrative event, and therefore, the "rank/belt" is taken away ON PAPER!! Once the notice/action has been approved by all interested departments, and all the proper signatures have been acquired, and the student has been properly notified, and all appeals, if any, have been exhausted, that said students CI will present said student with a new belt that reflects any and all Administrative actions. All necessary documentations will be added to said students hard-file immediately.

The knowledge, is, imho, eternal!! I can no longer take that, as I can no longer take the wind out of the air!!

[Spartacus Maximus]

I have never personally seen it, but I have heard about it often enough to believe that it is one of the popular disciplinary actions used with youths or children. The reason it works is the same as giving the belts in the first place. If rank and grading were less important than actual skill level, taking away a belt or rank would have no effect as a punishment.

In most cases I heard, demotion was the intermediate punishment. Serious offenses would result in the culprit being expelled immediately with one chance to return with an apology. In some less common cases the apology had to be written and signed. Immediate and final expulsion was for very serious things such as anything involving the law.

[Montana]

IMO, if a student has an infraction, such as bullying or starting fights, and deserves to have his belt taken away...I just kick them out of class permanently instead.

I give every new student a standard speech when they join the class, and this speech includes "If I ever hear of you using what I teach you in an aggessive manner, such as starting fights physically, or verbally, you will be kicked out of my dojo pernmanently."

And yes, I've enforced this on several occasions.

[IcemanSK]

I've not seen a belt taken away, but I have seen privileges stripped away. One guy I was acquainted with went to jail for molesting students. He's now persona non grata in Kukki-TKD circles. I do not know if his rank was stripped, but he'd be a good candidate for it.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Skills cannot be taken away but ranks can be erased. In the Far East, old-school teachers would disown and banish a student who committed a serious offense. The offender was expelled and the expulsion was made known to other teachers as martial arts teachers were often well acquainted with their peers. Word spread quickly and soon the blacklisted student would be refused everywhere. Being involved in Okinawan karate circles, I have heard of this happening a few times even in branch dojos in North America and elsewhere.