Sensei

[tetrazine]

I have been training in a new dojo for a few years and at times our sensei is asked what degree black belt he is. I thought he mentioned a while ago that he was 5th or 6th degree, but when people raise the question he is elusive. When asked the last time, he replied, "I just hang out. It's not something I keep up with any more." I was shocked at the answer he gave to someone else.

Now, this sensei really knows his stuff and we are learning traditional Okinawan Karate. I have no doubt in his abilities and information he shares.

Does anyone have any ideas as to how to approach the subject with him, without being offensive?

[Wastelander]

I know some people who reject the dan ranking system and just stop testing for new rank, although they keep training and teaching. Usually, they do this around 5th or 6th degree, but I've seen people do it at lower ranks. You can simply ask him, in private, what rank he is--it could simply be that he doesn't like to talk about it in front of a bunch of people, but will gladly discuss it in private.

I will say that if he is still elusive about it in private, it may not hurt to contact his instructor and ask. Alternatively, most instructors have their most recent certificate of rank hung up in the dojo, somewhere, and that would say what rank he holds. It really doesn't matter unless he's lying about it. The important thing is that you like him and what he is teaching, and he isn't lying or misrepresenting himself and what he does.

[Lupin1]

It's like that at my school. Our head instructor is an officially ranked 8th Dan only because his old instructor (a member of the United Isshinryu Karate Association) decided to show up randomly at our dojo and present it to him. My instructor didn't ask for it or test for it or pursue it in any way. Before it was made "official", he would just say "I don't really keep track" and because we're not affiliated with any organization, that's ok.

The two other instructors at our school aren't officially ranked. Our head instructor never officially promotes past 3rd Dan, though both of them have been studying since 1984 (they started the same time and tested for black belt together) and, if asked, our instructor will say something like "they're probably around 5th or 6th Dan".

[cheesefrysamurai]

First let me state that my intent to be disrespectful or hurt anyone's feelings.

My particular view is that lineage is very important to Okinawan karate. It was important for me to know my teacher wasn't only exceptional but he was well regarded by others. I was impressed to see he in a senior instructor in a good organization. That's just me.

It's not a 3000 year old thing. In goju Ryu it just goes back to Miyagi chojun sensei- not that long ago and he had only so many students and so on.

That being said, I think there is nothing wrong with being curious about who your instructor is as he is part of your lineage.

Who knows, maybe one day you will have students and you will need to explain.

Sorry If I sound like a snob.

[kensei]

Most people don't actually know the history of Dan ranking and belts. First off the original martial arts used the Menkyo system, of which I wont get into here. Jigaro Kano took the belts used by swimmers in Japan to denote levels of proficiency and started using them in Judo. Funakoshi Gichin took this practice and implemented it in Karate. At the same Time Kano began giving out a Dan level to support instructors in his style, Again Funakoshi followed suit.

Funakoshi actually only gave out up to the Fifth Dan ever, that was the highest he felt anyone would ever achieve. After he died the ranking went NUTS. we now have 10th Dans which was originally reserved for those that had run an organization and contributed a lot to the arts...and had died! It was an honor level only. Now you go to a Martial arts expo and you have guys that have six or seven 9th dan levels and perhaps a 10th Dan level as well...its stupid already!

My instructor told me once that if I ever tested up to Godan that would be the spot to stop, why bother going farther. He was asked to grade for Rokudan and that was the last level he tested for and then he said no more. its a silly ego trip that needs to stop!

Personally I don't care much about rank but others are so darn concerned with it that when Im asked about my rank I say I shower...I should not be so rank!

[Nidan Melbourne]

Is knowing his rank really that important if you trust the information he shares and his abilities?

From what you said

"I just hang out. It's not something I keep up with any more."

it shows that he found that he is content with his rank and that he doesn't feel the need to grade any further.

[JohnASE]

I agree that bringing it up in private is a good idea. It'll give you a better chance to explain your curiosity and give him a better chance to be open with you about why he's being "elusive". Then again, maybe you'd both be better off leaving it a mystery.

Sometimes high ranks are clear and well defined. Other times they're not. Off the top of my head, here are a couple of reasons a sensei might be elusive about rank.

I know a sensei who was spontaneously awarded godan by his sensei. If I remember correctly, the godan didn't really care about rank and was short on cash, so he opted not to pay whatever fees were required for promotion. I doubt the promotion was taken back, but he might be elusive about his rank.

Some groups have automatic advancements at very high ranks. I don't remember the exact details, but lets say from 5th degree on, formal tests are no longer required, and after 5 years at a rank, you automatically advance, as long as you're still training and teaching. What happens if you break away from such a group? Do your automatic advancements stop? Someone like that might be elusive about rank.

Some reasons make sense to others and some don't. If you get your answer, I hope it makes sense to you.

[tetrazine]

Everyone has really provded some food for thought. Speaking in private is certainly a good idea. Also, I did not consider that his rank may not be formal. He did train in Japan as a child and teenager so speaking with his instructor would not be realistic, nor would I do that anyway as it would be inappropriate.

Yes, while his knowledge is more important thank rank, the rank itself holds some credence, especially to those who are interested in joining the dojo. So, when I tell someone about the school and I am asked what rank the owner/sensei is, people expect a succinct answer.

Thank you to everyone who chimed in. You have been most helpful.

[bushido_man96]

It could be that he may not want to broach the topic at all. While asking him in private is an option, it could be that he still won't tell you anything, and he may not want to be pestered about it, either.

As others have mentioned, if you enjoy his classes, and feel he is doing a good job teaching you, then it may not be worth worrying about.

It also might be something he reserves to tell you for when you become higher ranked yourself. When you get to a spot where he says he can't grade you any more, then you'll have your answer.

[jaypo]

When I first started training at my current club, I observed the classes for a while before I approached him. Everything looked on point. Shortly after, the health club that we train in put pictures and short bio's of all of its "group fitness instructors" on a wall, and my Sensei's was included. The pic had the caption "2nd Dan, Shotokan Karate and 2nd Dan Shorin Ryu Karate" on it. At the time, I didn't care. The training was providing me with everything I expected. However, I was curious. So I started asking simple questions about his training history. And what I found out was this- he began boxing before he was 10 in Philadelphia. He started taking Shotokan from Master Okazaki and reached AT LEAST 3rd dan from him there (because he told a story that began with "when I was testing for Sandan with Master Okazaki.....). He then went into the service and spent years in Okinawa and learned Shorin Ryu while there.

I haven't really needed to know any more than that because I feel that I get quality instruction from him regardless of rank. And I do know from videos of him that I've seen that he has been training and teaching for over 50 years. And although he's 63 and has a lot less physical attributes than I do, he can still match me! (I'm 7 inches taller, I have about a mile of reach advantage, and I'm quicker then he is!)

I read once that over 5th dan is more of a reflection of your contribution to the art and business side of things.