Who would visit another club to grade them?

[mal103]

Maybe this should be in the grading section but it's aimed at instructors.

Who would consider a request to visit another club, sit on their grading panel and be the grading officer for senior grades?

Or would you insist they visit your club to attend your grading?

The scenario I have is two 1st Kyu's nearly ready to grade for Shodan, I'm a 2nd Dan so can only grade them to 1st Kyu but no further. We have close links to 3 other really good clubs in the area and one of them has offered that my 1st Kyu's attend their grading, the problem with this is that they get a slightly different syllabus, slight variations in Kata, have to get used to another Instructor and are in a strange Dojo.

Yes they should be able to cope with this but it all adds to the stress of the grade which can make some people panic.

What I would like to happen is that we invite a senior (5/6th Dan) grade to sit in on our grading, they do our syllabus and anything else the grading officer throws in. They get our certificate but with the senior signature on it.

I know 4 I would ask but not sure of their reaction - is this a common thing? I know seniors attending club gradings is common but this is normally WITHIN the same organisation...

[sensei8]

I've done this many times outside of the Shindokan circle!! It's both an honor and a privilege!!

I treat these testing cycles like I treat tournaments; techniques, to me have root core, but technique is technique! In that, it's either good or bad; there's no in-between! When I grade within the Shindokan circle, I don't consider the curriculum because the curriculum is NOT being tested and the student being graded isn't being graded on how well they know the curriculum!! Technique: good or bad!!

If the CI feels that he/she has to explain any nuances within their style, then I'm cordial, and I will note it!!

When you test, most grading officers will grade on whether the technique is good or bad, and grade it appropriately!!

Edited January 19, 2015 by sensei8

[DWx]

I've done this many times outside of the Shindokan circle!! It's both an honor and a privilege!!

I treat these testing cycles like I treat tournaments; techniques, to me have root core, but technique is technique! In that, it's either good or bad; there's no in-between! When I grade within the Shindokan circle, I don't consider the curriculum because the curriculum is of being tested and the student being graded isn't being graded on how well they know the curriculum!! Technique: good or bad!!

If the CI feels that he/she has to explain any nuances within their style, then I'm cordial, and I will note it!!

When you test, most grading officers will grade on whether the technique is good or bad, and grade it appropriately!!

I'm interested in how you would define good and bad as it pertains to technique. What makes something good or bad? Speed? Definition? Intent? The mechanics might be quite different between a Kyokushin Kareteka and a Shito-Ryu. Would you only examine related styles or would you consider evaluating Korean or Chinese styles?

To answer mal103's question, this is a regular occurance for us for testing 1st dan and upwards. We often invite other examiners (or send students to them) for their seal of approval. Always within the same style but not necessarily the same national organisation or exactly the same syllabus. Never had someone from a different style though.

[sensei8]

I've done this many times outside of the Shindokan circle!! It's both an honor and a privilege!!

I treat these testing cycles like I treat tournaments; techniques, to me have root core, but technique is technique! In that, it's either good or bad; there's no in-between! When I grade within the Shindokan circle, I don't consider the curriculum because the curriculum is NOT being tested and the student being graded isn't being graded on how well they know the curriculum!! Technique: good or bad!!

If the CI feels that he/she has to explain any nuances within their style, then I'm cordial, and I will note it!!

When you test, most grading officers will grade on whether the technique is good or bad, and grade it appropriately!!

I'm interested in how you would define good and bad as it pertains to technique. What makes something good or bad? Speed? Definition? Intent? The mechanics might be quite different between a Kyokushin Kareteka and a Shito-Ryu. Would you only examine related styles or would you consider evaluating Korean or Chinese styles?

Posture....balance...movement...after 50 years, I think that I can recognize the difference between a good or a bad technique.

And for those testing for Shodan, the beginnings of understanding the essential principles are required!! And for those of Sandan and above, a more solid understanding of these essential principles, i.e., breath control, utilizing reaction force, maximum strength, and concentration of strength. I want to see if there's a demonstrated presence of focus and responsing awareness! The lower the rank being graded, the lower the understanding, whereas, the higher rank being tested the higher the understanding!!

Nuances will be present between the styles, the main thing is that I wouldn't have been invited a chair on their testing panel if the CI and/or the governing body didn't think I was qualified. I grade the technique, and NOT the label attached to the core.

Similarly at open-tournaments. Judges are expected to render a fair and impartial ruling of the techniques before them; no matter if the practitioner is from a Chinese or Korean or Kyokushin or Shito-Ryu style.

Speed...Definition...Intent don't impress me! No! What impresses me is a good technique as I've understood it to be for 5 decades, per Dai-Soke!!

[Nidan Melbourne]

Maybe this should be in the grading section but it's aimed at instructors.

Who would consider a request to visit another club, sit on their grading panel and be the grading officer for senior grades?

Or would you insist they visit your club to attend your grading?

The scenario I have is two 1st Kyu's nearly ready to grade for Shodan, I'm a 2nd Dan so can only grade them to 1st Kyu but no further. We have close links to 3 other really good clubs in the area and one of them has offered that my 1st Kyu's attend their grading, the problem with this is that they get a slightly different syllabus, slight variations in Kata, have to get used to another Instructor and are in a strange Dojo.

Yes they should be able to cope with this but it all adds to the stress of the grade which can make some people panic.

What I would like to happen is that we invite a senior (5/6th Dan) grade to sit in on our grading, they do our syllabus and anything else the grading officer throws in. They get our certificate but with the senior signature on it.

I know 4 I would ask but not sure of their reaction - is this a common thing? I know seniors attending club gradings is common but this is normally WITHIN the same organisation...

I have been requested to help a senior grading despite my grade at other dojos. But at my dojo we don't have a required amount of grades ahead of those grading, with the exception of say a 2nd dan grading someone to 3rd Dan.

I wouldn't insist they come to my club, because it is unfair to have them go somewhere else.

At my last grading my sensei invited his old instructor (A Godan) to sit on the panel for his advice. Despite his instructors affiliations with my sensei's old club.

So I say it is a good thing if you invite the 5th/6th Dan if they are aware of your syllabus and how you want things done.

[mal103]

Thanks for your replies - when can you visit the UK...?

I will ask them soon and see if they would be okay with the idea, as said it doesn't matter what they do - it's how they do it.

I would plan a detailed and hard grading, it would be up to the visiting senior to decide if they think the candidate performed them properly.

I have since spoken to 2 other 1st Kyu's who are due this year and they were very keen on the idea as well.

They prefer that it is done in house but think it's good that another senior should be present.

[bushido_man96]

I think it would be good to be flexible enough to allow both options to work. Maybe a set-up where one testing is at your place, and the next time you need his help, you go to his place. That would make for a nice mix, I think, and you can meet others through the testings he hosts.

[DWx]

I'm interested in how you would define good and bad as it pertains to technique. What makes something good or bad? Speed? Definition? Intent? The mechanics might be quite different between a Kyokushin Kareteka and a Shito-Ryu. Would you only examine related styles or would you consider evaluating Korean or Chinese styles?

Posture....balance...movement...after 50 years, I think that I can recognize the difference between a good or a bad technique.

And for those testing for Shodan, the beginnings of understanding the essential principles are required!! And for those of Sandan and above, a more solid understanding of these essential principles, i.e., breath control, utilizing reaction force, maximum strength, and concentration of strength. I want to see if there's a demonstrated presence of focus and responsing awareness! The lower the rank being graded, the lower the understanding, whereas, the higher rank being tested the higher the understanding!!

Nuances will be present between the styles, the main thing is that I wouldn't have been invited a chair on their testing panel if the CI and/or the governing body didn't think I was qualified. I grade the technique, and NOT the label attached to the core.

Similarly at open-tournaments. Judges are expected to render a fair and impartial ruling of the techniques before them; no matter if the practitioner is from a Chinese or Korean or Kyokushin or Shito-Ryu style.

Speed...Definition...Intent don't impress me! No! What impresses me is a good technique as I've understood it to be for 5 decades, per Dai-Soke!!

Thanks for the further explanation Bob.

I would most definitely agree with the bolded part above (bold being my emphasis). An understanding of principles is quite essential. But I guess this is also where I see a breakdown in having someone from a different style assess technique. Take this excellent thread Brian started:

http://www.karateforums.com/tkd-forms-a-running-comparison-vt47646.html

We're comparing styles within Taekwondo. Even within this there are some pretty big differences in methodology and how the techniques are performed. For example the videos of TTA type practitioners and ITF practitioners doing the same forms have some big differences in how they do blocks or strikes or how they manage the stepping. Without knowing any better I would guess there are also fundamental differences in movement between Karate styles, example: how Uechi - Ryu does Sanchin and how Goju - Ryu does it. Same movements but glaring differences. Thing is, fundamentally, if I as an ITF practitioner did my block in the way shown in some of the videos of other TKD practitioners, I would be missing the understanding of our essential principles. Likewise the opposite case would hold true.

Rather long-winded but what I'm trying to get at is how do you say something is good or bad (or a shodan+ level) without understanding the styles key principles. Taking an extreme example, how do I know this is good or bad:

[Gazrichards]

I hold the rank of 5th Dan in shotokan and live within reasonable driving distance from you and I would have no problem at all coming to visit for a grading (not that you have asked......).

My opinion is that there is enough money grabbing and un wanted politics going on in the martial arts that if I can help someone out or extend an olive branch and stop others going through some of the rubbish I have been put through then I will.

I don't belive my advise would be useful purely as a "senior grade" but rather as someone that has sought the best advise out himself and taken the good and ditched the bad.

But, why as a 2nd Dan can you not grade your own students to shodan? Who told you that?

Probably a chief instructor of a former org you were a part of that wanted to keep you under his spell a few more years and cream some more cash off you.

Considering that when I sought out someone to grade me to 5th Dan I was mostly told that it was common for people to build a panel of say a 4th Dan and 3rd dan (making a 7th dan!!!!!) to grade them, I would say that your students would be more than happy with being awarded a grade by their own instructor.

[mal103]

I hold the rank of 5th Dan in shotokan and live within reasonable driving distance from you and I would have no problem at all coming to visit for a grading (not that you have asked......).

My opinion is that there is enough money grabbing and un wanted politics going on in the martial arts that if I can help someone out or extend an olive branch and stop others going through some of the rubbish I have been put through then I will.

I don't belive my advise would be useful purely as a "senior grade" but rather as someone that has sought the best advise out himself and taken the good and ditched the bad.

But, why as a 2nd Dan can you not grade your own students to shodan? Who told you that?

Probably a chief instructor of a former org you were a part of that wanted to keep you under his spell a few more years and cream some more cash off you.

Considering that when I sought out someone to grade me to 5th Dan I was mostly told that it was common for people to build a panel of say a 4th Dan and 3rd dan (making a 7th dan!!!!!) to grade them, I would say that your students would be more than happy with being awarded a grade by their own instructor.

Thanks Gaz! I am very humbled and impressed with your offer and I may even take you up on it. I fully intend to keep close links with all of the good MA'ists that I meet so we can out shine those bad ones.

Going by that logic then my 2nd Dan combined with my son's 1st Dan = 3rd Dan!

I have always thought that the grader must be 2 ranks higher than the gradee so have always assumed I can't grade a 1st Kyu to Shodan but going on what I have witnessed others do with self grading and skipping grades then I don't think many people would be bothered if I graded them. The students would be more than happy, although a few of us believe that there should be an additional grader to validate the Dan grade.

When I realised my old Sensei was more interested in money and self graded then I almost went out and took my 2nd Dan with someone else as it felt worthless. I've now trained with enough good Dan grades to know I'm at the right standard.

I've since been led to think of Dan grades as nothing more than one or two people saying that they think you are at that level, there is no national or international rules or standards that must be met. I recently spoke to an Austrian Dan rank who was shocked what some clubs are allowed to do in the UK, they mentioned that most of their Dan grades had to go before a central board.

Thanks again, will let you know how I get on.