Do what I say , not what I do

[Nidan Melbourne]

Oh yes, I remember the days of the collage rugby field, January, blowing a gale with stinging sleet and hail, shivering in thin jerseys while the coach screamed at us from the side line in his Arran jumper, thermal leggings, padded touch line coat, wax hat and fur lined wellies! Oh yes, them were the days! My Sensei lets you attack him as hard as you want, he also lets us perform the techniques on him too, his tai sabaki is as good as any. I know many schools don't allow their students to use their Sensei as Uke, but David is humble and gets up as fast as you throw him.

Sorry but what happens when your sensei slows down and stops being able to be thrown around and throw others? Will you tell him that sorry he can't be your teacher any longer and you're moving on to better things?

That it is very true. They have gotten to the point that they cant so certain things but they try their hardest to teach others.

My sensei's old instructor broke his back (severely) 20 years ago and now is in his 80's. He cant be thrown comfortably anymore and he can barely throw anyone still. But he can still verbally walk people through the moves and tell them how to do it safely.

[bushido_man96]

Observing and emulating the instructors techniques is one of the classical ways of learning karate. This works very well but students often forget that listening and applying the concepts that are explained. This is especially true if the instructor is past his prime.

The instructor may be a phenomenally skilled expert, but students should realize that age forces him to do things a certain way. Slight variation in stances while executing a kata for example. Students don't often consider this and try to emulate exactly what they see because they are convinced the way the instructor does it is perfect.

It is not stressed enough in most dojos that doing what the instructor says is sometimes more important than trying to do it exactly the way he does it. I have only heard this twice since I became involved in karate at age 10.

Just recently, my instructor stressed that he has adapted his techniques and kata to fit his age and other physical attributes. His main point was that students should follow technical instructions and explanations more than trying to just copy the way he does. If a 20 year old student just apes his 70 year old instructor he would be doing old man karate. In other words that student would not be doing karate to his full potential. It is best to listen and try to apply what your instructor says. Once students acquire the correct way to execute a technique, they should aim to adapt it to their own physical traits.

A great example of "Do what I say and not what I do".

Too often student forget that a master or expert is not someone with perfect performance. An expert or master is one who has a level of understanding that allows him to adapt techniques to his own age and physical condition without compromising effectiveness.

Good stuff, and I agree. Not long ago, I was talking to a student who asking about some advanced kicking techniques, and I was explaining to him different aspects to work on. Sadly, I don't have the physical ability to perform the technique as well as I used to, but I do have the knowledge to teach it, and was able to relate to him the aspects of the kick he was seeking.

As we get older, its important to adjust so that we can keep training well into our later years. Not all seniors will be able to train at the pace that younger students do. There are exceptions out there, to be sure. But by and large, as we get older, we have to adapt so we can keep going. In the end, like you mention, its important to understand where we adapt and why, and then let the younger students know why we adapt, and why they should do it differently, and explain these things to them.

[pers]

I can see your point, but I was led by example. I do recognise that masters get old and infirm, but they become elders who you go to for council. They may have the knowledge, but they advise, they do not instruct directly. The world is full of people who command respect from warriors when they have no idea what it is to fight. World leaders are moving units all over the globe like chess pieces while talking of "Acceptable Levels of Casualties." The retired fighter has much respect, but he doesn't grade the students, his rank is his but his status is as I said, retired. I asked one of the Dan grades "Who grades you? Who would grade me if I joined your Dojo." "Kyoshi." She said, while pointing to a picture of a huge man with a broad smile. If so, I thought, I could call any Dan grade present at that grading to spar with! I quickly chased the thought from my mind.

IMHO this impedes progression. Whatever field you are studying, be it science, maths, or martial arts, you learn from your predecessors and build upon their knowledge. Else you just repeat what they had to discover and never go on to anything new.

You honestly would prefer an instructor who is still fit in his mid 30s say over someone in their 60s or 70s who had trained twice as long and had done things Mr Young & Fit could only dream about?

well said ...if the teacher is good and knowledgeable and has one through the ranks and has reached old age and can not do a high kick like he used to do or his physical condition had deteriorated with age or illness it does not mean he can't pass on the knowledge , he could have vast amoint of skill to pass on ,sometimes correcting small details or adjusting a minor movement in the student's technique can make a big difference .

Like saying john Toshack should have never coached Wales becuase he couldn't score goals or play like he used to when he was playing for Liverpool !

I throw this one in to raise your Welsh spirit !

[Harkon72]

If you want to turn to sport, I prefer Rugby; Warran Gatland is Wales' coach, he used to be a player, an All Black, but now he never puts his foot on the pitch. He is a retired Master, but he is wise and his opinion is sought. Robin McBride is Wales' Forwards trainer, he was possibly the toughest Hooker that the Welsh Front Row has ever seen, he's on the training ground, you do as he says, he still tackles like a juggernaut, he is the Sword Bearer of the Druid Order of Wales, he is the Sensei. Dan Lydiate is the team Captain of Wales, he's young and tough, he picks the team as he is there in each game in the front line, he is the Sempai. We know how each person fits in, from the 10 year old touch rugby player in the school yard to the 80 year old ex international who remembers the game and the "99" call in South Africa. I would never disrespect my elders, I am here because of them. My father and his unit fought in a real war, hand to hand; maybe my previous comments were clouded by anger, but I stand by them, for a man to call himself "Kyoshi" with no idea what it means; I will not bow to him, if he could see his belt or not.

[Spartacus Maximus]

It seems like the discussion I started is taking a turn I did not expect. There are valid points here, but my aim was to point out the fact that learning by trying to copy your instructor has some limitations.

Being out of shape and infirm is not the same as just being old. Regular training and practise will only slow down the effects of aging. Eventually, no matter how fit the instructor is, his techniques will naturally vary.

The image of the old master with almost super-human skills is so ingrained in popular culture that students often try to emulate their older instructor without considering age. An instructor with decades of training will not do things exactly the same way at 45 and 70 years old, even if he is very fit. The older one gets the more important it is to make constant conscious efforts to maintain correct technique and minimize or adapt to the effects of aging.

I'm not certain if I explained my point well enough. I hope some of the lifelong older martial artists know what I mean.

[Harkon72]

I'm trying to, I'm sorry if I led the thread astray. One local Aikido instructor gave up his art at the age of 50, he had really bad knees and his wrists had limited movement after years of practice. One Aikido Master, after learning of this said; "50 years old? Leaving the Dojo disabled? He must have been doing something wrong." We must look after our selves, the gentler you fall, the longer you can do it for.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Wow, 50 years old is not very old at all to "retire". Someone who is crippled by cumulative training injuries by that age certainly must have been doing something wrong.

This is true today but it was also true a long, long time ago when medical care was not readily available and training was much harsher. Legendary Okinawan karateka of the past century all lived well into their 80's and some even older with few exceptions.

Back then life expectancy was much lower than today and the fact that these men still had great skill well into their old age is a testimony to their level of mastery.Training is meant to increase physical fitness, not cripple and deteriorate health.

Even if your instructor cannot perform the techniques the same way at 70 as he could do them before age-related differences started; he still knows how they should be done and the reasons why. That is where listening to instructions and applying become essential.

Robotic imitation does not allow a student to internalize and truly own the techniques. Adapting the same techniques in a way that always fits oneself without compromising effectiveness and purpose takes a deep understanding of each step involved.

If you are a 20 something 1st dan, you should not try to do your kata and techniques like your 60 something 8th dan instructor. Instead you should do them the way your instructor expects someone of your age and level.

[mal103]

Couple of points to add...

In one of Kanazawa Sensei's books he recalls when Funakoshi Sensei was teaching him to get into a lower stance, he stated that he now did it that way due to old age whereas he was young and could get lower.

I think this is a classical example of the OP's point.

What I think has also come into this topic is when you have instructors who have picked up bad habits or can't do it properly any more due to being unfit or over-weight. This is a very valid point, I know of two 5th Dans that fall into this category, one can't kick high because his belly gets in the way or he gets too tired. Another has very bad habits, even though they seemingly know what it should look like they show it badly, some students learn best by copying.

If an instructor is older and restricted or has disabilities then there is nothing wrong with them still teaching, maybe they need to get a technically good person out the front to demonstrate the move/kata, especially for the type of students that "see-do". One of the funniest examples I've seen of this was when a Brown belt started teaching a club too early, when his white belts turned up on their first grading they all had the same mistakes!

[bushido_man96]

It seems like the discussion I started is taking a turn I did not expect.

I just wanted to make a comment in regards to this aspect of the threads that Spartacus Maximus pointed out. The discussions here at KF are pretty free-flowing, and threads will take a turn away from the discussion at hand at times. And that's ok. I think we've generated some pretty good discussion here, discussion we might not have had if the thread hadn't been started at all. Its ok for things to stay a little bit, and if the subject matter gets too off course, that is something we can always address in a separate thread, if we need to.

You've started a good thread here, Spartacus Maximus, and its generated great discussion.

One local Aikido instructor gave up his art at the age of 50, he had really bad knees and his wrists had limited movement after years of practice. One Aikido Master, after learning of this said; "50 years old? Leaving the Dojo disabled? He must have been doing something wrong." We must look after our selves, the gentler you fall, the longer you can do it for.

Not everyone ages the same way. Maybe this instructor could have done something differently, and maybe it would have added a few years to his career. Or maybe not. Either way, I don't think its fair to assume he did something wrong in his training because he stopped sooner than others might.

[sensei8]

I've only one thing to say...whatever the Hombu decides, that's what the expectations will be across the board. Have a concern, contact the Hombu!!