New Club for Cross-Training...

[ShaolinShorin]

Hi all,

Since the beginner of my karate journey, my sensei has encouraged us all to crosstrain in different styles to optimize our fighting style. Aside from Shorin-Ryu / Shotokan (JKA), I've done BJJ and some MMA also. I have to say I've enjoyed them although I'm not an expert by any means (I'm only a shodan in my "native" style of Shorin-Ryu!)

I train in Shorin-Ryu, so I visited another Shotokan Dojo at a university a while ago (not my usual JKA affiliated dojo)

They were fortunate enough to let me in, although I'm only 17. I went in with some high hopes, since I figured I could learn a lot from a university dojo with adults (esp. since my previous experiences with BJJ and MMA have been nice, so I always look forward to new stlyes).

However, I was in for a bit of a surprise. I wore a white belt in to show my respect for the style. I quickly spotted a shodan that was quite solid in his technique, and I was excited since I assumed that every other yudansha was as good or better than he is).

Unfortunately, in the next 2 hours of class, I have to say I was disappointed. Except for the one black belt, everyone else had questionable techniques. This is not to criticize Shotokan - it's more like the roundhouse kicks of 1st kyus and even some shodans could not hit the head level. in the 10-15 advanced level belts, only the aforementioned one person could do a mawashi to their own head height. The intructor was in his 30s, and he had quite a sloppy mawashi too (he tripped and fell quite a few times?)

Once again, I am not attacking the style. I've trained JKA before and I know that good practitioners of the style are very very proficient.

My questions is, should I travel A LOT LOT farther to go to my previous JKA affiliated dojo where i cross trained, or should stick with a questionable dojo where ikkyus and shodans can't even do a proper mawashi or yokogeri?

Sorry if this came off as arrogant, as my kicks are nowhere near perfected either, but I figured that shodans should kick to their own head height with near perfect technique?

[wagnerk]

I can't comment on the practice or the standard of Shotokan karate at the club you visited (or the instructor). However to assume that you have to kick head height because of your rank otherwise your kick isn't "proper" shows, perhaps, a poor understanding of karate techniques.

Everyone is born with a particular range of motion for each joint in their body. In addition to that there are generally three factors that can affect flexibility: Occupational demands, movement demands and training oversights. This includes factors like injuries, age, etc...

[Harkon72]

Today, in modern karate schools, you may assume that those of shodan level should be able to perform head height round house kicks. But, you will find that many traditional schools don't have such techniques as a priority. Some believe that the higher you kick, the more vulnerable you are to counter attack, the less able to defend yourself you are in a crowd and that the fact that the higher you kick, the more power you lose. Then again it depends on the style and their tradition. Personally, I can kick to head height but in a real situation, I prefer to deliver a hard kick to the thigh than a tap on the head.

[ShaolinShorin]

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying.

Sorry, I'll clarify.

The instructor says jodan mawashi geri

-> all ikkyus and above fail to kick anywhere close to head height except one person

injury cannot account for 14/15 people not being able to do a jodan mawashi, neither can the style

i.e. it wasn't a CHOICE or strategy, they just flat out weren't able to do it.

[Archimoto]

Hi all,

Since the beginner of my karate journey, my sensei has encouraged us all to crosstrain in different styles to optimize our fighting style. Aside from Shorin-Ryu / Shotokan (JKA), I've done BJJ and some MMA also. I have to say I've enjoyed them although I'm not an expert by any means (I'm only a shodan in my "native" style of Shorin-Ryu!)

I train in Shorin-Ryu, so I visited another Shotokan Dojo at a university a while ago (not my usual JKA affiliated dojo)

They were fortunate enough to let me in, although I'm only 17. I went in with some high hopes, since I figured I could learn a lot from a university dojo with adults (esp. since my previous experiences with BJJ and MMA have been nice, so I always look forward to new stlyes).

However, I was in for a bit of a surprise. I wore a white belt in to show my respect for the style. I quickly spotted a shodan that was quite solid in his technique, and I was excited since I assumed that every other yudansha was as good or better than he is).

Unfortunately, in the next 2 hours of class, I have to say I was disappointed. Except for the one black belt, everyone else had questionable techniques. This is not to criticize Shotokan - it's more like the roundhouse kicks of 1st kyus and even some shodans could not hit the head level. in the 10-15 advanced level belts, only the aforementioned one person could do a mawashi to their own head height. The intructor was in his 30s, and he had quite a sloppy mawashi too (he tripped and fell quite a few times?)

Once again, I am not attacking the style. I've trained JKA before and I know that good practitioners of the style are very very proficient.

My questions is, should I travel A LOT LOT farther to go to my previous JKA affiliated dojo where i cross trained, or should stick with a questionable dojo where ikkyus and shodans can't even do a proper mawashi or yokogeri?

Sorry if this came off as arrogant, as my kicks are nowhere near perfected either, but I figured that shodans should kick to their own head height with near perfect technique?

There are so many variables but I recommend basing your decision on the quality of the instructor and not the students. Most university dojo's have a high turnover with few students that spend a lot of time with an instructor. Just my .02

[sensei8]

Travel wherever you NEED to because your MA betterment is yours, and if you feel that you need to travel farther than your use to, then satisfy your need!!

[hammer]

Glad I go to a school where, while jodan is defined as head level, in practice jodan means "as high as you can kick with good form".

I'd like to be able to kick to head height in all cases, but even after many years in a TKD school, my kicks only go that high on a good day and I struggle to get roundhouse kicks with the right leg above waist level. Maybe being 50 YO and starting MA in my mid 30s has something to do with it...

For the OP, how were the other techniques of the students in the school? If they were otherwise solid maybe the school just doesn't put emphasis on high kicks. If that isn't the type of place you want to train, just look elsewhere...

[Wastelander]

Here is another way of looking at it:

If you didn't know they were supposed to be jodan, how effective were the kicks at the level they were thrown?

If the form was good, and the speed and power were there, then it's probably just a flexibility issue. I know some people who physically can't kick to their own head height, but you wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of their kicks thrown with ill intent. There are some things I don't worry too much about when I'm evaluating skill levels of martial artists, and being able to kick to head height is one of them.

For what it's worth, I suck at hook kicks and crescent kicks. If I were being evaluated by my ability to throw a hook or crescent kick, I would rate quite poorly!

[Nidan Melbourne]

Coming from someone who has legitimate issues with doing head kicks due to injury, I am a Nidan and I cannot physically kick to head height. And to be absolutely honest I am actually offended (rarely does this happen).

Let me explain why i am offended: I have had multiple injuries to my ankles, knees and hips over the last 13 years (i'm 22). And at one point had surgery on my knee to repair it. Along with that I have in general poor flexibility in the hips so it is difficult to "open" them up to perform the kick.

When you said that

Injury cannot account for 14/15 people not being able to do a jodan mawashi, neither can the style[qoute] how do you know that they don't have injuries that affect their techniques?

It may not be just an injury but usually there are other factors involved with it.

Even though the JKA can be tough on their students, they will still make allowances for those with certain types of injuries especially with kicks.

Don't rate a school purely based of 1 kick of their senior students (or instructor).

Also how many sessions have you attended at this university dojo?

[armanox]

I don't think too many people at my school can do a round house to the head. I know I can't anymore, due to injury. Also consider that we do not practice that kick (or side kick, or hook kick) as part of class. I also can no longer do jump kicks (since I had ankle/leg surgery in January, following a car crash). Remember - the round house does not appear in any Shorin Ryu kata (or any of the standard Shotokan kata).

With that said, I wouldn't want to take a kick from quite a few of the people at my school. Nor an elbow smash for that matter (that I've seen as a common counter in sparring against round kick happy individuals in tournament....)