Not very happy

[mal103]

A student of mine went to another school and got a good kick in the ribs!

The whole family train with me on a Monday and the parents take it in turn training on a Wednesday but the father still likes to get in another session somewhere if possible.

Unfortunately the prefered nearest club also train on the same days as us - something I would like to change - so he has been looking further away.

Had mother and kids turn up last night saying that the father was in too much pain to train, he went to another club where several students were asked out in front to demonstrate stuff, or to demonstrate where they were going wrong.

He was asked out to demonstrate Gedan Barai (lower sweeping block/strike) and was informed it was too high but to make the point he kicked him in the ribs and stated the arm should have been covering the ribs!

On a technical point I always try to show several applications to a move and don't get too hung up on the exact classical postion, ask 10 instructors where something should be and you will probably get 10 different answers, then ask different styles....

On another point - how dare he kick my student!!! It would have been accepted if he was corrected or shown reasons why, or shown that it can be anywhere between A and B - if he had come back with that feedback then I would have been happy to take it onboard, or maybe check myself, but to kick him hard in the ribs is unacceptable.

I think they have lost a potential student but I will also advise him to complain or even investigate their insurance if he has received damage, they are linked to the JKA so should be all in order.

It's tempting to go and speak to the Sensei, although he is a few Dan grades above me I think he is in the wrong. What do you think?

[Wastelander]

This gets a bit into martial arts politics, which certainly isn't my area of expertise. I would say that if your student signed a waiver at this other dojo, then there probably isn't anything that can be done, from a legal/insurance standpoint. Pain from a kick to the ribs isn't exactly an unusual injury in martial arts. That said, I do think the instructor was out of line, regardless of whose student he kicked--a light or slow kick would have illustrated the same thing, and not taken the student out of training.

In the end, I think it's really up to the student. If he wants to keep training there, then you should probably talk to the instructor. If he doesn't, then he should just stop going and let that do the talking.

[Hawkmoon]

hmm...

Pride, Politics...and the expert otherwise known as a newbie will not give a full account of the situation.

How many times have any of us stood in the line, or spread out over the hall heard command done as instructed and quickly realized we heard wrong?

A chat with this guy is far better than say sending him a letter, less formal, and more personable, why not 'pop' over and simply work with him for a few sessions over the coming months, get a feel for him his ways and wow and what he does.

Every story has two sides, and 'newbies' don't always relay the facts as accurately as they think they are.

[mal103]

I should add that the student in question is a 6th Kyu but used to be 2nd Kyu years ago, he has started again from white to stay the same level Kyu as the rest of his family. He is an average slim fellow who trains hard and is always open for corrections and is normally very good technically. He has trained at a few clubs and never been a problem.

[bushido_man96]

A student of mine went to another school and got a good kick in the ribs!

On another point - how dare he kick my student!!! It would have been accepted if he was corrected or shown reasons why, or shown that it can be anywhere between A and B - if he had come back with that feedback then I would have been happy to take it onboard, or maybe check myself, but to kick him hard in the ribs is unacceptable.

It sounds like he isn't just your student, if he is seeking classes elsewhere, as well.

It's tempting to go and speak to the Sensei, although he is a few Dan grades above me I think he is in the wrong. What do you think?

You could go speak with him. I wouldn't worry about the fact that he outranks you. You could go ask him about the incident, if he meant to kick him that hard, or what his intentions were. But I'm not sure what it will gain you, unless it will just make you feel a bit better.

What do you know about this instructor? Is he a good one, bad one, or have a dubious reputation? Is this an out-of-character action for him? If this is his standard way of teaching, it might not take long to filter students out of his school.

[Archimoto]

I agree with Bushido's comments and add that in my opinion this is a matter between the student and the other instructor. Your student was not there representing you or with your direction - from what you've explained he was there simply to train. In my humble opinion it's a matter between the student and the other instructor and it's up to the student whether he returns or where he spends his time training. I actually believe that it's out of line for you to speak with the other instructor. At the same time, I do think it's within your right to speak with your student about it and let him or her know that you're there for them to offer guidance and advice.

Just my humble opinion.

[mal103]

Thanks everyone for your time in commenting, on reflection the below is where I am now so I will have a good chat to the student in question and offer guidance.

I agree with Bushido's comments and add that in my opinion this is a matter between the student and the other instructor. Your student was not there representing you or with your direction - from what you've explained he was there simply to train. In my humble opinion it's a matter between the student and the other instructor and it's up to the student whether he returns or where he spends his time training. I actually believe that it's out of line for you to speak with the other instructor. At the same time, I do think it's within your right to speak with your student about it and let him or her know that you're there for them to offer guidance and advice.

Just my humble opinion.

The club he ventured to is a few miles away so I know nothing about it, I just know that if I started hitting my students with any force then I wouldn't be teaching for much longer, either the students would all leave or I would be reported to the authorities and my governing body, also have angry parents knocking on the door.

It's slightly different with senior grades as they would have been conditioned to take a hit but still within reason and never full force, but by then you would have a rapport with them and both know where the limits are. Certainly not something I would do with a visiting student as you know nothing about their medical or training history and the belt colour doesn't always let you know what standard they are up to.

At what point does "hard training" and "old School" turn into basic assault?

I've had my legs swept and taken several knocks from Sensei's as part of the training but never been in pain and only after a certain level of training.

[ps1]

This situation has nothing to do with you, IMO.

I certainly wouldn't go suggesting lawsuits for two reasons:

1. Let's say your student wins his case! Yay for him. Next thing you know you have the same attorney finding new sources of revenue knocking at your door asking about the time little jimmy stubbed his toe. Simple fact in the US is our liability waivers suck and don't hold up.

2. It's bad business. All the other instructor did was make sure your student wants to train with you and not him. Let him go out of business in his own time. If you go suggesting things, word will travel; especially if your student follows through. That could put your school at risk.

3. The discussion you should have with your student should be about consistently making it to class. I would imagine you have certain expectations set forth...you should if you don't. Point out that only committed students make it to the highest levels of the art; which is the goal.

Just my opinions.

[Nidan Melbourne]

I agree with Bushido's comments and add that in my opinion this is a matter between the student and the other instructor. Your student was not there representing you or with your direction - from what you've explained he was there simply to train. In my humble opinion it's a matter between the student and the other instructor and it's up to the student whether he returns or where he spends his time training. I actually believe that it's out of line for you to speak with the other instructor. At the same time, I do think it's within your right to speak with your student about it and let him or her know that you're there for them to offer guidance and advice.

Just my humble opinion.

I agree with you on this point.

Even though your student is training at another dojo and got hurt in the process is all on him. You didn't tell him to go train at another school for extra training or anything. Getting hurt during Martial Arts Training is a part of life and will happen.

IMO if the parent wanted to get another session in during the week they (both parents) could have gone in to your dojo on the wednesday with the kids to train.

But what the other sensei did i believe was also wrong in kicking the student because if he (your student) was apparently doing something wrong in terms of technique. When I teach students (and visiting students) and they do something wrong i'll demonstrate with another student what they did wrong and what they're meant to do (or a variation of what they do). BUT i wouldn't hit hard because i don't want them to stop training or feel apprehensive about training normally.

The only time i hit is during free kumite but it is still controlled.

[andym]

A student of mine went to another school and got a good kick in the ribs!

The whole family train with me on a Monday and the parents take it in turn training on a Wednesday but the father still likes to get in another session somewhere if possible.

Unfortunately the prefered nearest club also train on the same days as us - something I would like to change - so he has been looking further away.

Had mother and kids turn up last night saying that the father was in too much pain to train, he went to another club where several students were asked out in front to demonstrate stuff, or to demonstrate where they were going wrong.

He was asked out to demonstrate Gedan Barai (lower sweeping block/strike) and was informed it was too high but to make the point he kicked him in the ribs and stated the arm should have been covering the ribs!

On a technical point I always try to show several applications to a move and don't get too hung up on the exact classical postion, ask 10 instructors where something should be and you will probably get 10 different answers, then ask different styles....

On another point - how dare he kick my student!!! It would have been accepted if he was corrected or shown reasons why, or shown that it can be anywhere between A and B - if he had come back with that feedback then I would have been happy to take it onboard, or maybe check myself, but to kick him hard in the ribs is unacceptable.

I think they have lost a potential student but I will also advise him to complain or even investigate their insurance if he has received damage, they are linked to the JKA so should be all in order.

It's tempting to go and speak to the Sensei, although he is a few Dan grades above me I think he is in the wrong. What do you think?

And you have every right to be mal103