Favorite way of teaching applications of kata to students

[Wado Heretic]

I think you are correct in that we agree to a point Luther unleashed; that ultimately we view the instruction of young people in the same broad theme.

Saying that though, in terms of applications of Kata, I am a sceptic. I am not sceptical of the idea that kata contain combative methods, and that these can be interpreted and inferred to with the trained eye. However, I take every approach to applications with a pinch of salt.

When I did kenpo, every form could be related back to the self-defence techniques. However, the forms never evolved beyond just contained the techniques; so one might as well just work on the content.

When I did Wado-Ryu, bunkai never quite worked because it was not part of Ohtsuka Meijin's concept of kata. Also, the waza needed significant changes to be made workable with regards to models such as HAPV.

Also, my experience of Judo and other grappling disciplines has taught me something; you need the benefit of working against someone to understand how grappling techniques work. The Kata might contain ways to stand and resist body-to-body techniques, and how to perform take downs, but I am doubtful you will find locks in them beyond holds such as grabbing the head.

I believe this is what Mabuni and Motobu were discussing, and criticising, when they talk of kumite drills derived from kata movements with no alteration but also of the negligence of traditional kumite. Mabuni also states that although kata should be 50% of one's study, that one should not neglect hojo undo and kumite. I believe the grappling techniques of karate are in fact found in kumite, and hojo undo, not the kata.

I believe the Kata contain broad themes and ideas, but mostly deal with what you can actually practice via kata. Movement, and ballistic techniques. Hence, bunkai should not be a deconstruction of kata but the meeting of all aspects of one's training.

To return to Mabuni and his criticism of kumite drills derived from kata with no alteration; I believe this is true of most application practice today, even among those who practice so called ohyo bunkai. Mabuni, and others, speak of kata as a map but from which can be derived spontaneous and numerous responses.

A fixed application drill cannot reflect this. Thus my approach of simply practicing the kata against force and attacks, and evolving spontaneous responses from there. The physical intensity of such is beyond children, and hence why I do not do application work with children.

Practice kata as kata, and find the content through training, not thinking. I know this runs counter to most, but hopefully it serves to expand on my earlier post regarding my favoured way of engaging in application practice.

[Luther unleashed]

I agree, I always learned self defense from other drills and striking combinations. I teach that there are many uses for forms such as leg strengthening, coordination, and the direct applications such as the strikes. To me, it should be stated that the best self defense is often the more simplistic methods. I have practiced pyung ahn oh dan, for example, many many times. I feel if I'm going to practice something so much then I want to derive all of its capabilities of learning potential.

Also, we are not back in the days where fighting was so common. Self defense plays less of a role in our age in the martial arts IMHO because the society we love in, and the angle is to create a sense of humility in students in most studios these days, so one should first try every means of not fighting anyways, at least that's what I teach. It's because of this, that I think there's a very relevant artistic side to practicing karate, or Kung of for that matter and forms certainly facilitate this side of things.

[bushido_man96]

I actually haven't had much opportunity to teach forms applications to students yet. I have taken some opportunities in basics to point out some applications of basic techniques, like the knife hand strike, or the middle block, here and there, but never with a form.

[Luther unleashed]

I actually haven't had much opportunity to teach forms applications to students yet. I have taken some opportunities in basics to point out some applications of basic techniques, like the knife hand strike, or the middle block, here and there, but never with a form.

Why not? Just curious. Do you have a desire to teach? Sounds like you have the experience in martial arts for sure. Is there no program in place for you to make this more accessible?

[bushido_man96]

I actually haven't had much opportunity to teach forms applications to students yet. I have taken some opportunities in basics to point out some applications of basic techniques, like the knife hand strike, or the middle block, here and there, but never with a form.

Why not? Just curious. Do you have a desire to teach? Sounds like you have the experience in martial arts for sure. Is there no program in place for you to make this more accessible?

Well, there are a couple of reasons. For one, I'm not the chief instructor at the school. Not my school, so I don't get to make the decisions on the curriculum. Another factor is that by and large, forms applications aren't taught a lot in TKD, except for a handful of instructors out there that really dig in and find applications on them. What I've gleaned from them is what I've researched in books by Iain Abernethy and Stuart Anslow, from which I'd start to experiment and study, if I could go that route.

[Luther unleashed]

I actually haven't had much opportunity to teach forms applications to students yet. I have taken some opportunities in basics to point out some applications of basic techniques, like the knife hand strike, or the middle block, here and there, but never with a form.

Why not? Just curious. Do you have a desire to teach? Sounds like you have the experience in martial arts for sure. Is there no program in place for you to make this more accessible?

Well, there are a couple of reasons. For one, I'm not the chief instructor at the school. Not my school, so I don't get to make the decisions on the curriculum. Another factor is that by and large, forms applications aren't taught a lot in TKD, except for a handful of instructors out there that really dig in and find applications on them. What I've gleaned from them is what I've researched in books by Iain Abernethy and Stuart Anslow, from which I'd start to experiment and study, if I could go that route.

Got ya. I understand about the material taught and not being able to decide. This is one of the greatest advantages when I opened my school. I get to decide what we are doing tonight, I enjoy it although it can be very challenging to decide. Is my material stale, is it interesting, is it effective and so on.

As far as Tae Kwon do forms and application I actually forgot until you said that. I never learned an application when I did WTF or ITF. I think that's part of the reason I never cared for forms until I learned Tang soo do forms, they became more fun to me. The artistic side of developing your own PRACTICAL applications are fun to me.

Do you aspire to run your own school? If so do you feel you only want to do it with your organization? Just curious as I left my school to go out on my own, I had my reasons but I get the benefits of each decision. How about You?

Here check this out, these are my kids creating their own applications, we'll some they learned in class and some I helped with but some they did as we'll really. It was something we/they did for fun. The form is pyung ahn oh dan.

https://youtu.be/pNnYRvC54tE

[bushido_man96]

Do you aspire to run your own school? If so do you feel you only want to do it with your organization? Just curious as I left my school to go out on my own, I had my reasons but I get the benefits of each decision. How about You?

I wouldn't mind running my own school again; I have done so in the past, before I moved to go to school. The only problem is that right now, I don't think I could honestly dedicate what I need to for one to be successful, with my boys being young, and they being so involved in so many other activities. I really make myself available to them for practice, training, and playing and watching, so unless I did a very limited schedule, I would have a tough time running a full-time school. But who knows?

If I did end up running a school, I wouldn't mind doing it under my current organization. By and large, I like the curriculum as far as testing requirements go, and if I was making my own schedule and teaching my own classes, I could dedicate more time to what I wanted to work on with the students.

Here check this out, these are my kids creating their own applications, we'll some they learned in class and some I helped with but some they did as we'll really. It was something we/they did for fun. The form is pyung ahn oh dan.

https://youtu.be/pNnYRvC54tE

Thanks for sharing this. Its good to do those kinds of drills, to at least get the students thinking and seeing different things.

[Luther unleashed]

Do you aspire to run your own school? If so do you feel you only want to do it with your organization? Just curious as I left my school to go out on my own, I had my reasons but I get the benefits of each decision. How about You?

I wouldn't mind running my own school again; I have done so in the past, before I moved to go to school. The only problem is that right now, I don't think I could honestly dedicate what I need to for one to be successful, with my boys being young, and they being so involved in so many other activities. I really make myself available to them for practice, training, and playing and watching, so unless I did a very limited schedule, I would have a tough time running a full-time school. But who knows?

If I did end up running a school, I wouldn't mind doing it under my current organization. By and large, I like the curriculum as far as testing requirements go, and if I was making my own schedule and teaching my own classes, I could dedicate more time to what I wanted to work on with the students.

Here check this out, these are my kids creating their own applications, we'll some they learned in class and some I helped with but some they did as we'll really. It was something we/they did for fun. The form is pyung ahn oh dan.

https://youtu.be/pNnYRvC54tE

Thanks for sharing this. Its good to do those kinds of drills, to at least get the students thinking and seeing different things.

Well good luck man with whatever you decide to do. I didn't see this post I wish there was a notification to let me know I was quoted or something. I hear you about the kids, it's tough. Actually upon starting my program though I'm able to do it as my only "career" at the moment and it actually allows me more time personally, then prior when I was a mechanic working 50+ hrs a week.

Never know buddy, keep your mind open.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Luther unleashed

[Luther unleashed]

Oh, one more thing. Teaching forms to youngans, thanks for the positive feedback on my kids video. I currently teach about half a class length of application to youth once a month. They seem bored sometime and like to move faster and kick and punch. I don't do it as much to teach real usable applications although they are, I do it to open their mind pretty much as you basically said. I hope it's useful down the road even if they are in another do-Jang at some point, it's my hope that their foundation and big picture view on karate will make them better martial artist. I want to effect them in this way, it's my goal and the greatest testament to weather or not I am an effective teacher. That's how I judge myself anyways lol.

[sensei8]

The Kata, within itself, IS the model for how many different ways there are to teach young and old students. My younger students love the "Yame" drill. It both challenges them, and it educates them.

For each and every step, the student's going on my count, they mustn't make a mistake, no matter the size of it. If a mistake is made, the ENTIRE class starts over again. I've had very few students complete a Kata from start to finish. It's about being accountable!!

Senior Dan ranked students rarely complete a "Yame" drill!! Kids love the tar out of it when a Senior Dan struggles to complete said Kata. I can be quite the taskmaster!!

Heheheheheheheheheeheheheheeheheheheeheheheeheheheheehehehee...