Can't Take It!

[sensei8]

Is rank truly forever? If not the instructor, can the governing body take rank away, therefore, demoting said student of said rank, if only for a short time or for longer or forever?

If a student, no matter the rank, isn't producing quality and effective improvements, therefore, regressing, thus stale, in their technique(s). Should said student remain said rank?

YES!! The student should remain said rank because RANK IS FOREVER!!

A student's abilities may not be up to par per said instructor(s) and/or governing body, but there's usually a credible reason(s) for the difficulties for said student.

Age. Physical disability. Mental disability. Personal issues. A plethora of possibilities that might cause temporary or permanent set-backs. No matter the reason, rank is forever.

Ban them. Suspend them. Brand them. Whatever. Rank remains. Why? They earned it at said given time by some sensei(s) and/or governing body in the past. Said Sensei(s) and/or governing bodies put their stamp(s) and/or signatures on said rank certificate and recorded said award as being valid at that given time. Rank is forever!!

Tangible things are just things. Experience and knowledge, well, those aren't up for being taking away or lessened by nobody no matter who they may think that they are.

Quit for awhile, then return years later?! Well, their previously awarded rank is still valid, but said sensei(s) and/or governing bodies might recommend that said student wear a lesser rank belt, for the moment, until they've returned to said noted rank again. It's a probationary rank, and that's not even close to taking someone's rank away.

We stripped San Dai-Soke's authority, but not his Judan. He's still recognized as a Judan as it was awarded to him accordingly as well as appropriately. Rank is forever!

"Look how slow he/she is now. Feeble and unpolished. So old, and not deserving of said rank." Really? How will YOU be when you're as old or older? Rank is forever!

Your thoughts?

[Lupin1]

Rank isn't so much a measure of skill, but a measure of learning. It's like my bachelor's degree. Do I remember half the stuff from the classes I had to take to earn it? Nope. Does that mean it should be taken away and I should be reduced to high school diploma? Nope. It's an indication that I did the work and the learned required to earn it. Now it's mine even if I forget every last word my professors said (to be fair, I do remember quite a lot still).

[DWx]

Rank isn't so much a measure of skill, but a measure of learning. It's like my bachelor's degree. Do I remember half the stuff from the classes I had to take to earn it? Nope. Does that mean it should be taken away and I should be reduced to high school diploma? Nope. It's an indication that I did the work and the learned required to earn it. Now it's mine even if I forget every last word my professors said (to be fair, I do remember quite a lot still).

That's quite a nice analogy for it.

However I'm of the opinion rank can't necessarily be taken away but you can be designated inactive if you don't actively train at the right level. In the normal world certain academic fields or professional bodies would require you to show you are keeping up with the latest in the industry for your status to still be valid.

[devil dog]

Thats an interesting question. I would say that you are the rank you earned. It really doesn't matter if you are no longer capable of praticing or teaching at that level because of inactivity or disability. You earned it!

What if you are the baddest Karateka in the world or the best teacher in the world and you get into a car crash and can no longer walk. Do you deserve to be stripped of your rank? I don't ever remember signing something that says that you remain at this level or your rank will be taken back.

Now on the other hand should someone be able to teach at that level or oversee an organization if they have been inactive for years. Who's to say. I guess the argument can be made that they are not of sufficient skill to hold a position or run a dojo. However I have see 300+ pound lazy slobs that run their dojo's and have their Shodans and Nidans run the classes. If ever there were a case for demotion whould this not be the case. But they are still teaching and still retain their rank.

Why? Because you can loose the skil but the knowledge can not be taken away by inactivity or disability. I do not agree with having Jaba the Hut teach me or should I say his underlings teaching me because he can't get up from behind his desk but you can not take away the fact that he knows more than you might ever learn. This has value and the belt represents that knowledge base. How can you take that away?

Titles I guess could be a different story. They are honorary and technically could be stripped away if the individual does not live up to their title.

However if you have put the blood, sweat and tears into earning the rank of what ever Dan you should have it for life. Not everyone achieves it and life does have a way of getting into the way and divering some from the path. But this does not negate the fact that it was earned and the knowledge was learned.

I say no. Rank id for life!

[sensei8]

The MA, in and of itself, is sometimes a maze of contradictions and incongruities. Rank isn't without its defectors and supporters. However, MA politics choke the life from both the caring proponents as well as those who doubt.

Imho!!

[CredoTe]

Indeed, my computer engineering degree definitely has a shelf life; especially if I don't strive to keep up with the ever-changing technologies in the world of computers/IT. But, I will always be considered a college graduate with a degree (I just can't get lazy and arrogant with it).

Same with MA, IMHO. Once a student obtains a certain level / ranking of knowledge, internally, they will always keep that level / rank. However, regardless if their "official" rank changes up or down, their knowledge and skill will suffer internally if they become lazy and arrogant (thus neglecting themselves).

[sensei8]

"You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time." Imho, this is the MA, especially rank!!

[SteyrAUG]

There are two issues at play.

Knowledge and ability.

Generally knowledge is forever and ability is not quite as constant. This is why you don't have to take your SATs every 5 years to maintain your college degree.

So let's take two scenarios:

1. An individual who has dedicated 40 years to training and is currently a Godan but if we are honest at 55 years of age wouldn't exactly dominate at a tournament even in the Shodan level. He can train a Shodan how to dominate at a tournament but his days of getting all four flags every time are more than a decade past.

2. An individual who once attained the rank of Shodan after 6 years of training then quit and hasn't practiced in over 20 years. He can't remember what Kiba Dachi means, couldn't get a side kick past his beer belly and has devoted his time to cigarettes and reality TV.

In each case both individuals legitimately attained the rank of Shodan. But are both of them STILL a Shodan?

I stopped perusing organized systems at Sandan and as a consequence I can never be ranked higher. But in the almost 20 years that I have held a Sandan grade (as well as handful of Shodans) I have bested 4th and 5th Dans. Does that make me a Yodan or Godan grade? Does it mean they should lose their rank because they were beaten by a Sandan?

Furthermore, if one of the ranking bodies I am no longer a member of decided they will no longer recognize my rank does that really mean anything? I still know what I know and can still do most of it well enough to keep up with Shodan grades who are 20 years younger than me.

In a very real way rank is almost meaningless. I've learned more since getting my Sandan grade than I learned from white belt to Sandan. If I decided to remain within that system and under that organization I'd certainly be wearing a much higher grade.

But to me it was more interesting to simply be a martial artist.

[Nidan Melbourne]

Rank can be forever as you earnt it, BUT many people i have trained with in the past have had another instructor come in (say an 8th dan of the same style) and readjusted that persons rank to reflect that persons skill level.

This one person i know was a 1st kyu and was downgraded to a 4th kyu. this instructor came in (well known to my sensei and his teacher) and with the permission of the chief instructor to change a students rank if they aren't up to scratch.

[lowereastside]

Again my 3 cents - My college degree still stands today after 35 years of receiving it. Now can I go in today and pass all my exams? UM -