Karate sparring distance and self protection

[CredoTe]

Okay, I guess I'm going to come out as the controversial one here. No, sparring at typically seen, long Shotokan range, does not prepare you to be a good close range infighter. I will concede it prepares you better than not sparring at all, but only marginally. You have to prepare for what you are going to be doing. The dynamics, speed, timing and techniques all change at close range. If you want to see how much different, try sparring at a close range. Circle up your dojo mates leaving about a 4x4' square free, put two people in the center and let them spar there. Or, as we've done in the past, grab a spare belt and tie them together at about arms reach from one another. A very, very different game.

Now, it's just a game and that's important to remember. Working for self defense is different than stop and go sparring, or even mma sparring. Forearms, elbows, knees, locks, sweeps and throws, head butts are part of the self defense arsenal that aren't legal in Shotokan's typical sparring. It isn't just a matter of knowing the techniques, it's something you have to actually practice applying.

The point being you will be good at what you train for. There may be some fringe benefits that carry over to other formats and applications for skills, but it is low percentage. Drag racing doesn't make me a better road course racer. I may under stand throttle control and clutch use better, but I won't get better unless I'm on those road courses. If you want to be better at close range engagements, get in close and engage. Break down what you think works at that range and test it out.

Solid post... Your words that I emphasized above... Absolutely! This is why we train so hard to develop whole-body dynamics (gamaku) for power generation - not just hips! The entire body must work in unison with the earth to generate destructive power at any range!

When training with partners and kumite, one of the important aspects of doing these things is what we call ma-ai (distancing). There are multiple layers of the meaning of distancing... First, students must learn their own proper distancing with which to execute moves properly; i.e. how close or how far they have to be to throw a punch or a kick or an elbow, etc. We show them that this "personal distancing" is indeed unique to each student, just as each of their stances' measurements are unique to them. Once they grasp this "personal distancing", then we introduce them to the second layer of distancing...

This second layer is itself composed of 3 basic areas of fighting; meaning, every fight is composed of these 3 areas/distances, even if only for fractions of a second. These 3 areas/distances are: 1) at or one step away from arm's length, 2) close up/in-fighting, and 3) ground. We also explain that entire MAs are often based in one of these 3 areas. To be an effective fighter/self-defender, a student must be able to fight well enough to survive in all 3 areas; that they must be able to flow from distance 1 to distance 2 to distance 3 while maintaining focus and technique in order to be effective. They don't have to be experts or phenoms; again, just be able to fight well enough in all 3 areas to survive.

IMHO, this is not a Kyokushin vs Shotokan thing (or any MA vs MA thing); rather, does the MA student have sufficient training/experience to be able to fight in all 3 areas/distances?

[Hawkmoon]

Look at this video...

Watch the fights (most of them anyway) initially show close quarter combat, and then all of a sudden an opening appears and POW!

Obviously the opening of the gap is the setup, the fighter has up to this point fought at close range and has worked out something about his opponent and so moves to end the contest!

Consider this vid..

A mixture of both 'at range' and close combat.

Both work in and out side the kick range looking to get the upper hand, and both not quite getting there! so it becomes a test of stamina, toughness, endurance over a few rounds.

Kyokushin considers fighting at range an unsafe place to be, an unsafe practice, so we fight close as a rule. We fight at range to end it!

Is one system better than the other no not really just a different mind set!

[Safroot]

Look at this video...

Watch the fights (most of them anyway) initially show close quarter combat, and then all of a sudden an opening appears and POW!

Obviously the opening of the gap is the setup, the fighter has up to this point fought at close range and has worked out something about his opponent and so moves to end the contest!

Consider this vid..

A mixture of both 'at range' and close combat.

Both work in and out side the kick range looking to get the upper hand, and both not quite getting there! so it becomes a test of stamina, toughness, endurance over a few rounds.

Kyokushin considers fighting at range an unsafe place to be, an unsafe practice, so we fight close as a rule. We fight at range to end it!

Is one system better than the other no not really just a different mind set!

Solid post and nice videos

[bushido_man96]

You bring up some good points in regards to the differences in sparring styles, but keep in mind that self-protection and sparring are different animals.

I do think that sparring can be beneficial to self-defense; learning to deal with a resisting opponent, using footwork to gain advantages, etc, are some good things that translate from sparring to self-defense. However, a point sparring environment doesn't produce the same emotions that an adrenaline dumping self-defense situation does. Its likely that if you have to defend yourself, it might be from a lot closer quarters than a sparring distance, changing the dynamic a bit. There is also the likeyhood that there will be more grabbing, shoving, and grappling involved, changing the dynamic further. Self-defense can get pretty chaotic.

With that said, if a style tends to make one fight from a distance or in close, its important that the stylists train in such a way that they can learn to get to the distance they feel comfortable with when it comes time to defend oneself.

[sensei8]

You bring up some good points in regards to the differences in sparring styles, but keep in mind that self-protection and sparring are different animals.

I do think that sparring can be beneficial to self-defense; learning to deal with a resisting opponent, using footwork to gain advantages, etc, are some good things that translate from sparring to self-defense. However, a point sparring environment doesn't produce the same emotions that an adrenaline dumping self-defense situation does. Its likely that if you have to defend yourself, it might be from a lot closer quarters than a sparring distance, changing the dynamic a bit. There is also the likeyhood that there will be more grabbing, shoving, and grappling involved, changing the dynamic further. Self-defense can get pretty chaotic.

With that said, if a style tends to make one fight from a distance or in close, its important that the stylists train in such a way that they can learn to get to the distance they feel comfortable with when it comes time to defend oneself.

Solid post!!

[brickshooter]

I think that both styles would benefit with drilling distance control. They Shotokan guys can really benefit from more separation skills which would enable them to distance themselves quicker, and allow them to setup for an immediate 2nd attack. And the Kyokushin guys can really benefit from with closing & hikite skills instead of waltzing in or letting an opponent waltzing out at will.

I don't know if it's the tournament rules, but I don't see drilling in these skill sets. I hear a lot of talk & explanations. But unfortunately I don't see a lot of drilling to keep the opponents in a fighter's optimum range. And the result is that a lot of Karate guys (regardless of styles) are stuck with what ever the opponent chooses.

[Charlewisoe]

If a shotokan guy is in close range, he hasn't done his job right, the opponent had allready been KO. In shotokan the danger zone is much further away. On the street this mindset can be better to be aware of your surroundings, if you see guys approaching to harass you, keep you're distance with knowing that you can attack from a safe distance and hit him quite hard on a vital spot. Then run away In the movie Kuro Obi is a good example, when the police wants to attack with his sword, he's allready KO'ed by the shotokan master

[sensei8]

Not all succeed in close range tactics. Why? It takes nerves of steel and ice to live inside of the uncomfortable zone! Nobody likes to get hit, and being up close and personal, especially at first, increases the possibility that one will get hit often.

I thrive up close, but it wasn't easy at first to do so. The more one trains at close range tactics, imho, the easier it becomes. Being hit will still occur but those hits won't be decisive to ones well being.

Find YOUR comfort zone, define it, and desire it, being if it's close range or from a distance. To get use to the heat from a fire, one must not be afraid to stand close to the fire. Don't flinch when the heat rises. No. Embrace it; it's your friend.

Distance training and expertise doesn't happen overnight, but the rewards outweigh the efforts.

Good luck in your training!

[Hawkmoon]

You bring up some good points in regards to the differences in sparring styles, but keep in mind that self-protection and sparring are different animals.

I do think that sparring can be beneficial to self-defense; learning to deal with a resisting opponent, using footwork to gain advantages, etc, are some good things that translate from sparring to self-defense. However, a point sparring environment doesn't produce the same emotions that an adrenaline dumping self-defense situation does. Its likely that if you have to defend yourself, it might be from a lot closer quarters than a sparring distance, changing the dynamic a bit. There is also the likeyhood that there will be more grabbing, shoving, and grappling involved, changing the dynamic further. Self-defense can get pretty chaotic.

With that said, if a style tends to make one fight from a distance or in close, its important that the stylists train in such a way that they can learn to get to the distance they feel comfortable with when it comes time to defend oneself.

100% yes!

as I've said before if it feels wrong then that style is not for you, move on find the one that feels right!

This is in another thread, but I'll add it here as it works well to demonstrate the range aspect of combat no matter who the MA'ist or system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIEp6DoNFu4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

The target is at range and the attacker uses that space to setup an attack that is both powerful, misleading and cashes in on the fact fact here is space enough to do it!

Now to add and expand on this.

The more flexible you are the less space you need!

Watch it and consider leg stretches.

[Anaku]

I don't think anyone has found the answer to making sparring translate to self defense. It doesn't hurt to spar once you have developed control but the founders did not spar at all. Sometimes they fought in challenge matches, defended themselves or just got into a fight. It is true that once you've done something you are less nervous about it and I think this is why some picked fights in the old days.