Karate sparring distance and self protection

[ShoriKid]

I've been meaning to post for a while, but life has conspired against me. Sparring and self defense are not the same thing, but here is an example of who things change when you change the range. The first is me and one of our brown belts sparring lightly at long range.

Now, range is shortened with the use of the belt. Notice that the belt gets progressively shorter. The main man here is the same brown belt from the first video. Tallest guy with the longest reach in the dojo.

Have a bit of a pity on him now, it was his birthday. Which by tradition means he was the center of attention for all of the drills for that night.

The biggest thing to see is the change in tactics and techniques change with the range shortening up.

And lastly I think I miss our little (less than 300 ft/sq area) main street dojo.

[sensei8]

Sparring and self-defense aren't suppose to be the same. Your close range drill is excellent in demonstrating space management.

Thanks for the videos!!

[Kanku65]

When sparring in shotokan karate, I don't consider the fight to have begun until my opponent moves into close range on me. Of course I remain prepared at long distance keeping a good kizami zuki or kizami Mae Geri ready at all times. Why would any Karateka choose to go short range with their oponent? in doing so you automatially become the attacker and defeat the purpose of all the hard years you've been training. Remember that Karate is primarily and above all else a way of self defense. Sparring teaches us not how to fight, but how to not fight, by keeping our opponents at a non-lethal distance. We strike only when our opponent makes a mistake and decides to move in too close. We train to end the attacks of our opponents as quickly and quietly as possible.

The many kata we learn and practice teach us the essentials of short range combat, bunkai teaches us the application for these techniques and in dojo sparring gives us a way to practice these applications in a safe manner so we are ready if we are ever attacked outside of our controlled environment.

[sensei8]

When sparring in shotokan karate, I don't consider the fight to have begun until my opponent moves into close range on me. Of course I remain prepared at long distance keeping a good kizami zuki or kizami Mae Geri ready at all times. Why would any Karateka choose to go short range with their oponent? in doing so you automatially become the attacker and defeat the purpose of all the hard years you've been training. Remember that Karate is primarily and above all else a way of self defense. Sparring teaches us not how to fight, but how to not fight, by keeping our opponents at a non-lethal distance. We strike only when our opponent makes a mistake and decides to move in too close. We train to end the attacks of our opponents as quickly and quietly as possible.

The many kata we learn and practice teach us the essentials of short range combat, bunkai teaches us the application for these techniques and in dojo sparring gives us a way to practice these applications in a safe manner so we are ready if we are ever attacked outside of our controlled environment.

Solid post!! Especially the bold type above.

[ShoriKid]

When sparring in shotokan karate, I don't consider the fight to have begun until my opponent moves into close range on me. Of course I remain prepared at long distance keeping a good kizami zuki or kizami Mae Geri ready at all times. Why would any Karateka choose to go short range with their oponent?

Bit of a contradiction, if it's not a fight until you reach short range, why "play" at long range in a self defense encounter to begin with? Get in, get it done and get out.

in doing so you automatially become the attacker and defeat the purpose of all the hard years you've been training. Remember that Karate is primarily and above all else a way of self defense.

No, it doesn't make you the attacker. If you have tried de-escalation(if you have time), and disengagement (if you have the chance) and you still find yourself confronted with a threat that justifies force a preemptive strike is justified. You haven't "become the attacker", you are acting in self defense.

Karate is about self-defense. Self defense does not require to set back and wait for the other person to initiate action with the first attack. It puts you behind on the OODA loop to begin with. You should seize the initiative, close and neutralize the threat. That is what self defense is about, not sitting back and waiting for the threat to come to you. To close and violently put down the attacker, that is the heart of karate and what it's kata teach.

Sparring teaches us not how to fight, but how to not fight, by keeping our opponents at a non-lethal distance. We strike only when our opponent makes a mistake and decides to move in too close. We train to end the attacks of our opponents as quickly and quietly as possible.

The many kata we learn and practice teach us the essentials of short range combat, bunkai teaches us the application for these techniques

Sparring teaches you how not to fight? Then how does long range dojo sparring help you get better at the short range technique you say kata teach? Partner work, or very structure "sparring" will teach you to apply kata technique, not the sparring seen in most dojos. Long range sparring mostly makes you better at long range sparring. Timing, how to take a hit (if the contact levels are managed correctly), how to cope with aggression are learned, but have to be put into context. Those things can be pulled out and then put into a self defense situation and trained, but they are not the same.

and in dojo sparring gives us a way to practice these applications in a safe manner so we are ready if we are ever attacked outside of our controlled environment.

Unless your dojo sparring is done at close range, where those kata techniques work, it isn't doing as much as you think. Get in close, end things before it is a fight. If you sit at long range and wait for them to attack you've made it a fight. That implies an honest chance of back and forth. That is not what self-defense is about. I've said before, maybe even in this thread, that the lessons learned from typical sparring have to be understood in their own context. The lessons it teaches relate to the edges of self-defense, not it's heart. This is no knock on Shotokan, but it's sparring methods, like those of most karate styles aren't as connected to self defense as people have been told. A lot of that confusion stems from intermixing self-defense and dueling. Those are two very different things and we, as martial artists, shouldn't forget that. Both are useful, and one of them is legal. Training for both can be fun, but we can't forget what we are training each time.

All views expressed by Shorikid should be taken with a grain of salt. He exists in the flaming leper corner of "traditional" karateka. This public service announcement is brought to by the Safe Traditional Association of Karate Exponents, STAKE.

[guird]

If I recall correctly the forum rules here don't allow for debating the effectiveness of styles. But at the risk of reprimand, here goes.

The reason kyokushin is viewed as more effective for self protection has nothing to do with range. A confrontation can begin at any range. It's important to be familiar with all ranges, even if there is one you prefer, since you need to be good at others to get and keep the confrontation in your favourite range.

The reason Kyokushin is viewed as more effective for self protection is because the sparring is full contact and has fewer restrictions on what is allowed, thus making it a far more realistic simulation of real violence. I'd have to agree that it is the case that harder=more effective, (though it goes at the expense of safety).

[Safroot]

The reason kyokushin is viewed as more effective for self protection has nothing to do with range. A confrontation can begin at any range. It's important to be familiar with all ranges, even if there is one you prefer, since you need to be good at others to get and keep the confrontation in your favourite range.

The reason Kyokushin is viewed as more effective for self protection is because the sparring is full contact and has fewer restrictions on what is allowed, thus making it a far more realistic simulation of real violence. I'd have to agree that it is the case that harder=more effective, (though it goes at the expense of safety).

I agree with you.

There is NO strongest style but you can tailor any style for your good

[sensei8]

The reason kyokushin is viewed as more effective for self protection has nothing to do with range. A confrontation can begin at any range. It's important to be familiar with all ranges, even if there is one you prefer, since you need to be good at others to get and keep the confrontation in your favourite range.

The reason Kyokushin is viewed as more effective for self protection is because the sparring is full contact and has fewer restrictions on what is allowed, thus making it a far more realistic simulation of real violence. I'd have to agree that it is the case that harder=more effective, (though it goes at the expense of safety).

I agree with you.

There is NO strongest style but you can tailor any style for your good

For example, just as there are soft and hard styles of said MA's, there's also a strongest style as well. Whatever label is attached to said style of the MA, it's the perceptive mindset that makes said style of the MA what it is to "THAT" practitioner.

Just as there's a Yin and Yang, there are opposite forces within the MA that dictate said style of the MA per said the proponent of its methodology.

Imho!!

[guird]

For example, just as there are soft and hard styles of said MA's, there's also a strongest style as well. Whatever label is attached to said style of the MA, it's the perceptive mindset that makes said style of the MA what it is to "THAT" practitioner.

Just as there's a Yin and Yang, there are opposite forces within the MA that dictate said style of the MA per said the proponent of its methodology.

Imho!!

When I said hard, I meant hard contact during sparring v.s. light/semi contact, rather than linear v.s. circular and explosive vs graceful (like is often meant with hard/soft style). I largely agree with you, but perhaps unlike you I think one of the yin/yang oppositions is realism v.s. safety. Realism genuinely producing better fighters, safety having other benefits.

On average at least.

[ShoriKid]

For example, just as there are soft and hard styles of said MA's, there's also a strongest style as well. Whatever label is attached to said style of the MA, it's the perceptive mindset that makes said style of the MA what it is to "THAT" practitioner.

Just as there's a Yin and Yang, there are opposite forces within the MA that dictate said style of the MA per said the proponent of its methodology.

Imho!!

When I said hard, I meant hard contact during sparring v.s. light/semi contact, rather than linear v.s. circular and explosive vs graceful (like is often meant with hard/soft style). I largely agree with you, but perhaps unlike you I think one of the yin/yang oppositions is realism v.s. safety. Realism genuinely producing better fighters, safety having other benefits.

On average at least.

Like less down time due to injury? I have to put on a tie and smile at people who want to borrow money every day. Coming in marked up from hard sparring brings a lot of grief from supervisors. Lots of grief. Makes sparring hard for me riskier than just the injury factor. I can endanger my job. It's the only reason I miss my old job in retail management where they didn't care as long as I got to work and got things done.

Kyokunshin is well respected not for it's range of techniques, but the contact level at which they compete. The same reason boxing and MT have generally good reputations for producing hard hitters who aren't afraid of contact. That is a huge benefit that a lot of people could do well to receive. All sparring/training introduces flaws for safety. For Kyokunshin, and it's related styles, the "flaw" is targeting/weapons. For most other karate it's level of contact/weapons. You have to pick the flaw, recognize the hole it leaves in your training and how you need to cover it.