Karate sparring distance and self protection

[muttley]

A lot has been said about how Karate is great for self protection, however, karate-ka practice this at Karate sparring distance which, when it comes to it, is poor for self protection.

Yes, sparring distances do vary from style to style (Shotokan generally being quite a large distance, Kyokushin being much closer etc), which generally leads people to believe that Kyokushin is "better" for self protection.

Looking at this from a self protection point of view, does this mean that Kyokushin is indeed better for self protection than for instance Shotokan? In my opinion (having sparred in both styles), yes Kyokushin is good for defending oneself from close distance, however...those who train in Shotokan become comfortable at dealing with people from further away, therefore the moment someone comes in closer than the Shotokan practicioner is happy with, they are more prepared to deal with them aren't they? Doesn't sparring at a greater distance make you more prepared to deal with an "enemy" if they shorten that distance?

Has this post made any sense to anyone else? Sorry if it's more of a ramble, but I've just had a rather harsh 12 hour shift.

[andym]

The key failing in my view of the excessive reliance on Jiyu Kumite/ Free Sparring as a measure of effectiveness in self protection, is that you don't get to choose the range or mode at which the 'self protection event' : the fight, takes place. The attacker picks that. Training should cover all ranges and all modes of attack.

Note : I'm not attack free sparring as ineffective, it's a most for effective martial arts training. But, it is only one aspect. Some think it is the be all and end all.

[Safroot]

The key failing in my view of the excessive reliance on Jiyu Kumite/ Free Sparring as a measure of effectiveness in self protection, is that you don't get to choose the range or mode at which the 'self protection event' : the fight, takes place. The attacker picks that. Training should cover all ranges and all modes of attack.

Note : I'm not attack free sparring as ineffective, it's a most for effective martial arts training. But, it is only one aspect. Some think it is the be all and end all.

Totally agree ... once the attack happens you will never be able to control it to be close or far distance ... you have to be ready for both

[sensei8]

Imho...

Sparring distance and how styles approach it is not the problem of said methodology/ideology. No! The problem lies within the practitioner and their failure to take accountability of their inability to execute it properly and effectively. The karateka hasn't "mastered" timing and distancing for whatever reason(s).

Shotokan or Kyokushin practice and preach said sparring distance quite well, none better than the other, but that depends on whom one's asking.

The beauty of the MA is that there are many training tools, and we should make ourselves effective in each and every single one.

Again, imho!!

[Wastelander]

I don't think that any competitive karate sparring format is really ideal for improving self protection skills. All of them have their advantages and disadvantages, and each of them is excellent at what they do. Since real self defense scenarios occur at a wide variety of ranges, and include everything from strikes, to grappling, to weapons, it doesn't really help to specialize.

Kudo/Daido-Juku is probably the closest thing we have to ideal in the karate world, at the moment, and it's still far from perfect. MMA-style sparring, in general, is a bit better but still has its flaws when it comes to a self defense perspective. Of course, all we can do in the dojo, if we're being honest with ourselves, is get as close as we safely can. I think that if you thoroughly drill and spar in all ranges/types of fighting, then you will be decently prepared. Doing things like John Titchen's DART simulation training, or high-stress competitions, can also help immensely when it comes to dealing with the adrenaline dump and emotional response.

[sensei8]

I don't think that any competitive karate sparring format is really ideal for improving self protection skills. All of them have their advantages and disadvantages, and each of them is excellent at what they do. Since real self defense scenarios occur at a wide variety of ranges, and include everything from strikes, to grappling, to weapons, it doesn't really help to specialize.

Kudo/Daido-Juku is probably the closest thing we have to ideal in the karate world, at the moment, and it's still far from perfect. MMA-style sparring, in general, is a bit better but still has its flaws when it comes to a self defense perspective. Of course, all we can do in the dojo, if we're being honest with ourselves, is get as close as we safely can. I think that if you thoroughly drill and spar in all ranges/types of fighting, then you will be decently prepared. Doing things like John Titchen's DART simulation training, or high-stress competitions, can also help immensely when it comes to dealing with the adrenaline dump and emotional response.

Solid post!!

What you're speaking about in your first paragraph is right on the money. It's the stop-and-go to award points gets in the way of learning sparring distance and the like.

Again, solid post!!

[mal103]

A lot has been said about how Karate is great for self protection, however, karate-ka practice this at Karate sparring distance which, when it comes to it, is poor for self protection.

Yes, sparring distances do vary from style to style (Shotokan generally being quite a large distance, Kyokushin being much closer etc), which generally leads people to believe that Kyokushin is "better" for self protection.

Looking at this from a self protection point of view, does this mean that Kyokushin is indeed better for self protection than for instance Shotokan? In my opinion (having sparred in both styles), yes Kyokushin is good for defending oneself from close distance, however...those who train in Shotokan become comfortable at dealing with people from further away, therefore the moment someone comes in closer than the Shotokan practicioner is happy with, they are more prepared to deal with them aren't they? Doesn't sparring at a greater distance make you more prepared to deal with an "enemy" if they shorten that distance?

Has this post made any sense to anyone else? Sorry if it's more of a ramble, but I've just had a rather harsh 12 hour shift.

this also depends on how you train, if you delve deeper into Shotokan then you will start to learn that applications from advanced Kata are at very close range so if you practice these as drills you will be working much closer than the typical sparring distance. If you start winning against an attacker at long range then they will either give up or try to get closer or take you down to ground level. Again - the full Shotokan system includes ground fighting - its all in the Kata.

[AdamKralic]

The attacker generally will be IN your striking range to start the fight...no?

Even in shotokan if one is quick this can be used to advantage.

All of the fade kicks would be a surprise to the attacker I'd imagine. Especially the fights that start with pushes to intimidate. He'd likely register the half step back as fear on your part and automatically come forward. Or maybe the push itself already gave you the distance you need for him to walk into a sidekick to the jaw.

How good is the attacker at fighting? Did they used to be a semi-pro boxer? Have they gotten into 1,200 bar fights? Or is it a drunk loudmouth who never gets called out on his behavior?

Fights imo are hard to define. Seen great fighters go down to lucky shots from lesser fighters many times. (as I'm sure you have too)

[Hawkmoon]

You might find this thread a good read:

http://www.karateforums.com/sparring-stances-to-bounce-or-to-not-bounce-vt45875.html

kyokushin and Shotokan share many things, mainly because much of Kyokushins foundation is in Shotokan.

...and as Kyokushin student...

Yes, sparring distances do vary from style to style (Shotokan generally being quite a large distance, Kyokushin being much closer etc), which generally leads people to believe that Kyokushin is "better" for self protection.

yes, agreed it does but the reasoning is wrong.

Looking at this from a self protection point of view, does this mean that Kyokushin is indeed better for self protection than for instance Shotokan?

no no no!

Yes, we fight close to reduce/remove the chances of being knocked out, we are effectively trying remove the opportunity to get kicked in the head!

The result being we are seen to use elbows and knees more often than some systems! (the toughness we are accredited for, the barrage of body shots, and thigh kicks all trying to wear the opponent down!)

If we (and we do) fight at range it's only as part of setup for something generally speaking, or to discover what the other guy has brought to the mat!

In the early days of Knockdown tournaments '70 and '80 (the open tournaments) you could/would find Shotokan fighters in the last 8!

As others have said here no one system is better than another! More effective one system might be to some then others but to add, a person needs to find the art that works for them, no point working/chasing a system that feels bad, or is always leaving you low even depressed, better to try others and the one that feels right makes you feel happy as if you have achieved something then that is your one!

Edited February 12, 2014 by Hawkmoon

[ShoriKid]

Okay, I guess I'm going to come out as the controversial one here. No, sparring at typically seen, long Shotokan range, does not prepare you to be a good close range infighter. I will concede it prepares you better than not sparring at all, but only marginally. You have to prepare for what you are going to be doing. The dynamics, speed, timing and techniques all change at close range. If you want to see how much different, try sparring at a close range. Circle up your dojo mates leaving about a 4x4' square free, put two people in the center and let them spar there. Or, as we've done in the past, grab a spare belt and tie them together at about arms reach from one another. A very, very different game.

Now, it's just a game and that's important to remember. Working for self defense is different than stop and go sparring, or even mma sparring. Forearms, elbows, knees, locks, sweeps and throws, head butts are part of the self defense arsenal that aren't legal in Shotokan's typical sparring. It isn't just a matter of knowing the techniques, it's something you have to actually practice applying.

The point being you will be good at what you train for. There may be some fringe benefits that carry over to other formats and applications for skills, but it is low percentage. Drag racing doesn't make me a better road course racer. I may under stand throttle control and clutch use better, but I won't get better unless I'm on those road courses. If you want to be better at close range engagements, get in close and engage. Break down what you think works at that range and test it out.