Greatest Kumite fighters?

[vicotto]

Who do you consider to be the top three, non Japanese, Shotokan fighters of the twentieth century? Mine are...

1) Frank Smith

2) Frank Brennen

3) Lyoto Machido

[Th0mas]

Okay - because it is difficult to compare what Lyoto did with what Frank did, I will make the assumption that the comparison is not between them but within their own field of expertise

1) Elwyn Hall (He may not have been the most successful international competitor - but just a fabulously dynamic fighter to watch and train with)

2)Frank Brennan (Very very impressive)

3) Not sure here - Not Lyoto as he is 21st Century - maybe one of the SA boys (really strong fighters) - Dave Hazard Maybe?

For me it isn't always about the winners - as the competition scoring was always very suspect anyway - but those who show really dynamic karate and inspire me to try and emulate what they do.

[sensei8]

Interesting!

[JohnASE]

I'm no expert on this, but I think I remember seeing an article that mentioned Vern Vaden as one of the all time greats. I know Vern, but until then, I didn't know he had such a rep! He trained mostly under Nishiyama in SoCal but started under Okazaki in Philly if I remember correctly. He's in his 70s now, but I think he still fights on occasion at Camarillo Shotokan's tournament.

[Diamond,dave]

I'm no expert on this, but I think I remember seeing an article that mentioned Vern Vaden as one of the all time greats. I know Vern, but until then, I didn't know he had such a rep! He trained mostly under Nishiyama in SoCal but started under Okazaki in Philly if I remember correctly. He's in his 70s now, but I think he still fights on occasion at Camarillo Shotokan's tournament.

You are correct! I have trained with Sensei Vaden for many years! He is without a doubt one of the greatest! He still trains every day and lives a Karate lifestyle. I have watched him humiliate men 30yrs his junior, albeit with humility and grace too! He is respected world wide! I am by far beyond blessed to call him a friend!

[pers]

Okay - because it is difficult to compare what Lyoto did with what Frank did, I will make the assumption that the comparison is not between them but within their own field of expertise

1) Elwyn Hall (He may not have been the most successful international competitor - but just a fabulously dynamic fighter to watch and train with)

2)Frank Brennan (Very very impressive)

3) Not sure here - Not Lyoto as he is 21st Century - maybe one of the SA boys (really strong fighters) - Dave Hazard Maybe?

For me it isn't always about the winners - as the competition scoring was always very suspect anyway - but those who show really dynamic karate and inspire me to try and emulate what they do.

you mentioned some great names ,Dave Hazard and Elwyn Hall ,Frank Brennan ,Terry Oneil and among the japanese Enoeda,Kanazawa ,Yahara ,Tanaka ,but there are many other great fighters you can add to the list from other countries.

[Bulltahr]

I'm a Andi Hug fan myself, he was active during those transitional years, K1 etc.

[Iskrax]

Rafael Aghayev,

Niyasi Aliyev

Luigi Busa

George Tzanos

Douglas Brose,

Vinicius Figueira

[wildbourgman]

My first instructor Blair Portier was pretty darn good in point competition.

[Wado Heretic]

Below are my picks, and arguments for, If discussing the 20th century alone. I have tried to stick to people who made their mark in traditional kumite, when considering those who have gone onto free-fighting or kick-boxing, and have divided my picks down into where I feel they most made their mark:

Knock-down: Kenji Midori and Ryu Narushima; The lightest winner of the World Championships, and the lightest fighter to make it into the top eight respectively. Both in a time where said championships were open weight, in a kumite form where weight is often the deciding factor. The fact they made it so far on technique alone is why I consider them my top picks for knockdown kumite fighters.

Kick-Boxing: Terutomo Yamazaki for his pioneering work in the sport; plus, his 8-2 kickboxing career, his victories over Muay Thai fighters during Muay Thai’s most dominant era, and his Karate tournament successes all speak for themselves. Andy Hug for similar reasons; he was a great knockdown competitor placing and winning Kyokushinkaikan and Seidokaikan world tournaments. One can also argue that Hug was an MMA pioneer due to his K-1 career where he fought and defeated competitors of many different stripes, and often at a weight and reach disadvantage as he was on the light side for a heavyweight.

Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis also deserve a mention here; for their dominant point fighting careers, but also pioneering work in the sport of kickboxing. Bill Wallace went 23-0, and Joe Lewis 16-4 with 10 by knockout in kick-boxing, and the argument can be made that without their contributions there would have been no such thing as American Kick-boxing.

Edit: Forgot to also mention Benny Urquidez. One of the first truly international fighters, who did a lot to increase the sports presence, and was also a great fighter by any measure.

WKF/Point-Kumite: Junior Lefevre primarily for being an elite competitor in kumite and kata during an era when most were one or the other. Wayne Otto as well, if we are simply talking about the ability to win tournaments. I must give honorary mentions to the likes of Steve Cattle, Terry O'Neill, and Frank Brennan all for being pioneers, and breaking the Japanese stranglehold on karate championships. Plus; Steve Cattle had quite the impact on people I have trained with and under, and I have heard some great stories about him.

Free-Fighting: Semmy Schilt is probably the only competitor from the 20th century I would consider a great kumite competitor, but whom also became a preeminent free-fighter. A Daido-Juko and an IBK Knockdown champion, as well as a dominant kick-boxer in K-1, Schilt also became a King of Pancrase. He also had a relatively successful run in Pride with the losses he did suffer coming from dominant fighters of the era. His size has played a large part in his success, but without authentic skills he could not have put said size to use to achieve what he has.

I would be tempted to add Chuck Liddell as his background is in karate, and his kick-boxing career was largely in American Kick-boxing; which takes it’s cue from full-contact karate. Plus, he did get his start in 1998, however, the prime of his career was in the 21st century, and I would say his lack of traditional kumite participation somewhat disqualifies him from “Great Kumite Fighters”, despite his being a great fighter.

Some honourary mentions from the 21st century:

Lyoto Machida: He won the 2001 Pan American Karate tournament and other amateur tournaments. He also had remarkable career in the UFC with a championship to his name, a joint tenth in consecutive victories in the UFC with 8 (16 over-all), and he has been one of the most accurate and evasive fighters of all time.

Georges St-Pierre: A junior Kyokushinkaikan champion, and arguably the greatest UFC Welterweight champion the sport of MMA has seen. He holds third place for most consecutive victories in the UFC, which also gives him the second place in amount of successful title defences at 12. This is as much down to his excellent wrestling game, as it is down to his back-ground in karate, but it was karate through which he discovered his talent for martial arts competition.

Rafael Aghayev: Arguably the most dominant Kumite Player of the 21st century; who has been placing in and winning international, and world, tournaments since 2004, and continues to do so over a decade later. This is down to his distinct style which relies on an approach to Tsuki-Waza which takes as much from boxing as it does karate, and the use of clinching and head movement to frustrate his opponents attempts at “Head-Hunting”; the scoring of significant points with high kicks to the head.