Loyalty to one's instructor

[sensei8]

does seeking instruction from someone other than your current instructor make you disloyal to him or her?

No!

If they can't provide the knowledge you seek, then how is it a question of loyalty?

No!

Does remaining loyal to an instructor also mean you should not seek out your own opportunities to expand and grow, and fulfil your dreams, because they feel you should stay under them for your entire life?

No!

Why? This isn't 1600 Japan/etc!!

[cheesefrysamurai]

does seeking instruction from someone other than your current instructor make you disloyal to him or her?

No!

If they can't provide the knowledge you seek, then how is it a question of loyalty?

No!

Does remaining loyal to an instructor also mean you should not seek out your own opportunities to expand and grow, and fulfil your dreams, because they feel you should stay under them for your entire life?

No!

Why? This isn't 1600 Japan/etc!!

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Also though loyalty and respect are very different like said before they do go hand-in-hand. You cannot be loyal to somebody if you don't respect them. But it's absolutely possible to respect someone you're not loyal to. In this day and age I don't see Cross training as an issue of loyalty. Loyalty today mean something very different than it did in the old days. I'm not sure what it means now and I will probably start a new thread with that very question but nobody is committing Hari kari for their senses anymore. There is more value placed on the student today as opposed to 1600s japan. I think today anywhere senseis consider themselves lucky to have good loyal students where as in the past the Sensei's were more the commodity

[Nidan Melbourne]

I greatly respect my sensei and i am loyal to him. He will have both of those until he either abuses them or till he proves to me otherwise.

he earnt every single bit of respect and loyalty that i have for him.

He also respects me enough to show courtesy to wherever i train. and that i won't disrespect his school or any school that i visit.

Even if we left on bad terms, i would still respect his school and that i wouldn't prevent anyone from training there.

He is also fiercely loyal to all of his students even if they annoy the heck out of them. and respects all of those students and acknowledges that they are all individuals that have different ways of learning and different personalities.

He encourages us to go out and learn karate from different instructors. as he wants us to grow as individuals and to expand our knowledge. We are allowed to share whatever we have learnt from other schools.

[cheesefrysamurai]

I greatly respect my sensei and i am loyal to him. He will have both of those until he either abuses them or till he proves to me otherwise.

he earnt every single bit of respect and loyalty that i have for him.

He also respects me enough to show courtesy to wherever i train. and that i won't disrespect his school or any school that i visit.

Even if we left on bad terms, i would still respect his school and that i wouldn't prevent anyone from training there.

He is also fiercely loyal to all of his students even if they annoy the heck out of them. and respects all of those students and acknowledges that they are all individuals that have different ways of learning and different personalities.

He encourages us to go out and learn karate from different instructors. as he wants us to grow as individuals and to expand our knowledge. We are allowed to share whatever we have learnt from other schools.

Sounds to me like your very lucky. He sounds open minded and confident. Respectable traits. His actions obviously motivate you to respect him and justify you loyalty.

[Nidan Melbourne]

I greatly respect my sensei and i am loyal to him. He will have both of those until he either abuses them or till he proves to me otherwise.

he earnt every single bit of respect and loyalty that i have for him.

He also respects me enough to show courtesy to wherever i train. and that i won't disrespect his school or any school that i visit.

Even if we left on bad terms, i would still respect his school and that i wouldn't prevent anyone from training there.

He is also fiercely loyal to all of his students even if they annoy the heck out of them. and respects all of those students and acknowledges that they are all individuals that have different ways of learning and different personalities.

He encourages us to go out and learn karate from different instructors. as he wants us to grow as individuals and to expand our knowledge. We are allowed to share whatever we have learnt from other schools.

Sounds to me like your very lucky. He sounds open minded and confident. Respectable traits. His actions obviously motivate you to respect him and justify you loyalty.

I am very lucky to have him as my sensei. He wants us to learn as much as possible.

[DWx]

Do you think this is a difference in Western vs Eastern philosophy?

I do think this is the case at times. In the West, it has never been unusual to seek out someone different if you needed to learn something different, or if you couldn't gain anything further from the one you were learning from peviously.

People's attitudes and views on things change over time. General Choi himself experienced this when he made the decision to move into North Korea with the ITF to gain government funding for his TKD. This was not popular with everyone who was a student of his, and it showed when they didn't follow him.

Yes that certainly is a valid point. Loyalty and politics are still a big deal in the ITF today. Especially since the passing of the General.

Here's another question: does seeking instruction from someone other than your current instructor make you disloyal to him or her? If they can't provide the knowledge you seek, then how is it a question of loyalty? Does remaining loyal to an instructor also mean you should not seek out your own opportunities to expand and grow, and fulfil your dreams, because they feel you should stay under them for your entire life? I don't think so. I think its important for us as people to learn, grow, and move on, just as our children do as they grow up. There just comes a time when there is nothing more for their parents to offer them, other than best of luck and godspeed. But, they are always there for questions and to offer advice.

Well according to General Choi (where the initial quote came from), loyalty is not breached by visiting other schools and styles. In fact he explicitly encourages it. But I think he makes the distinction that you should choose an instructor who you default to for advice and decisions and the person who you will support. Myself and friends I train with across the country (each under different instructors), all typically refer to our instructors as our "TKD fathers" because we've independently all developed that Confucian type of parent/teacher and child/student relationship.

[bushido_man96]

Well according to General Choi (where the initial quote came from), loyalty is not breached by visiting other schools and styles. In fact he explicitly encourages it. But I think he makes the distinction that you should choose an instructor who you default to for advice and decisions and the person who you will support. Myself and friends I train with across the country (each under different instructors), all typically refer to our instructors as our "TKD fathers" because we've independently all developed that Confucian type of parent/teacher and child/student relationship.

Have a "TKD father" as such makes sense to me, having an instructor that you default towards, and I imagine that most of us do have such an instructor. But again, I say knowledge base is going to be something that has to be considered when you need to fall back on someone for advise. I use the grappling knowledge again as an example. Or, lets say strategy in use of Defensive Tactics. It all will depend on the instructor's knowledge base as to how much you can fall back on them.

In this day and age of cross training, I do think that most of us probably have that one instructor that is out of our base or favorite style that we tend to refer to more often than most, and then the others fall in second or third, or whatever. Its good to have that solid foundation you can fall back on.

[ShotokanMaster]

Im only loyal to Abe Belardo Sensie Jason Senpai Deme Senpai Christ and Sifu Jesus sifu minh and Sifu Tony their the best Instructor ever they always teach ya step by step with detail make sure your technique are correct and also your form also they will as your question if you have any question on your form and technique also they let you go to class early and Practice your form and techniques

that's why I'm loyal to all of them

[ninjanurse]

I left an association ( I ran an association dojo) because the "master" demanded loyalty rather than earning it through respect and he refused to allow students to train in anyway outside his dojang . Of course, he would charge you for every extra class or seminar in addition to the outrageous tutition you paid-for a pretty basic and impractical system! He wanted my husband ( a Professor of Jujitsu) to become his student-and profess his loyalty to him- in order to cover classes for me at my own school!

When I left I told him my thoughts on loyalty and cross training (I "grew up" in a dojo culture heavily ifluence by Choi)....and some of his "loyal" students followed me out the door! Low and behold if he did not have an epiphany...now he brings in other instructors from other disciplines to cross train his students-but only if you pay him for it!

I see many such dojo's out there today-it is a real shame!