Youthful Masters.

[quinteros1963]

What is your opinion on what I call youthful masters? I have met and read about gentlemen well under the age of 30 ranked 5th dan (26-27). Another was awarded 10th dan by his mid 30's. Is this really possible? I thought you had to be older than that to attain master level in most organizations. Your thoughts?

[Karate_John]

Yea I feel that's a bit young. In my organization at least, 36 would be the youngest possible age for 5th Dan due to time in rank requirements if you received your Shodan-Ho at age 18. IMO any faster then that sounds like belt factory.

[sensei8]

In a world of immediate satisfaction and gratification, anything in the MA is possible.

When children can obtain a full-blown Shodan, I suppose they can achieve a Godan by the ages you speak about. Even a Judan at ones mid-30's is even possible.

Having said that, it can take quite along time, many, many years of dedicated and serious training without any breaks to achieve Godan. Judan takes an even longer time, and in that, most Judan's are bestowed upon after a lifetime of dedicated and serious training. In that, they should be rare, and I mean rare.

A mid-30 year old Judan should never happen, and if it does, I will not respect that said person. Besides, even Tenure doesn't guarantee any testing/awarding possibility. Let me be frank, it would be a slap in the face of any legitimate Judan.

For example...

18 years old at Shodan, Tenure for 1 year

19 years old at Nidan, Tenure for 2 years

21 years old at Sandan, Tenure for 3 years

24 years old at Yondan, Tenure for 4 years

28 years old at Godan. The stars and the moon and the planets would have to be in perfect alignment all of the time, and sometimes they are, but, for the most part, they're not, in alignment, that is.

Now, the catch is that said instructor has to honor said Tenure. Say the said instructor does honor the Tenure, well, now the testing candidate has to pass said Testing Cycle, providing that said testing candidate was approved to attend said Testing Cycle. To become a Godan by 28, is possible, however, Tenure will have to be approved at each and every Testing Cycle, AND, each Testing Cycle would have to receive a pass. I'm not an odds maker, but I'd say that those odds would be astronomical. It just doesn't always happen, especially in Shindokan.

Now, it's possible, that a student's Tenure could be amended by the governing body. It happened to me, but only happened to me once. I was Nidan for only 1 year, and not the usual 2 year Tenure. That was because I was a JBB for 5 years, and I was more than ready per my Soke and Dai-Soke. Let's also remember that many governing bodies have age requirements for said Dan Ranks and if one has not reached said age for said Dan rank, well, Tenure and Testing Cycle approval will be mute.

One more thing, everything I've listed and wrote about must happen at the prescribed minimums. Anything later, will throw a wrench into the entire thing.

In closing, not all governing bodies utilize a similar Tenure durations, and not all governing bodies have strict rules and regulations for their Testing Cycles!!

[Zaine]

I thought you had to be older than that to attain master level in most organizations.

You do. A lot of more traditional Dojo/Dojangs have time requirements such as the ones that sensei8 listed. Gaining your Judan (something that many never obtain) is quite literally a life long journey that is earned through one's devotion to not only the martial aspects but to the philosophical and sometimes spiritual aspects as well. I mirror sensei8's sentiment when he says that he cannot respect a mid-30s Judan.

[DWx]

Is it possible? Yes

Is it probable? Not likely. Or at least not likely when it's legitimately.

But it can happen as per Bob's example.

For example...

18 years old at Shodan, Tenure for 1 year

19 years old at Nidan, Tenure for 2 years

21 years old at Sandan, Tenure for 3 years

24 years old at Yondan, Tenure for 4 years

28 years old at Godan. The stars and the moon and the planets would have to be in perfect alignment all of the time, and sometimes they are, but, for the most part, they're not, in alignment, that is.

If the person has done the time and pass the physical / theoretical exam legitimately then why don't they deserve your respect? Some people live and breathe the martial arts from an early age and can be both knowledgeable and physically competent enough to do it. Somewhat more common when the godan's parents or other family member is high ranked also and has been training them hard since day 1.

[Harkon72]

My Sensei turned down a time served Godan after 35 years of training. He wants the full Physical grading test or nothing. He failed such a test this year; after six hours of hell they just said "See you next Year Sensei". One local instructor is a 5th Dan, he bought the Gracie franchise for £25,000, he's 34 years old. In who's Dojo would you rather be?

[Wastelander]

My Sensei is 28 and a Yondan, but many people have assumed that he is a Godan or Rokudan based on how he moves and teaches--he is always sure to correct them. I suspect his Sensei will test him for Godan in the next year, or two, which gives him the possibility of reaching a "master" rank by the age of 30, but just barely. Judan rankings before the age of 50 baffle me, and even then I would expect some extreme circumstances to have occurred.

[sensei8]

Is it possible? Yes

Is it probable? Not likely. Or at least not likely when it's legitimately.

But it can happen as per Bob's example.

For example...

18 years old at Shodan, Tenure for 1 year

19 years old at Nidan, Tenure for 2 years

21 years old at Sandan, Tenure for 3 years

24 years old at Yondan, Tenure for 4 years

28 years old at Godan. The stars and the moon and the planets would have to be in perfect alignment all of the time, and sometimes they are, but, for the most part, they're not, in alignment, that is.

If the person has done the time and pass the physical / theoretical exam legitimately then why don't they deserve your respect? Some people live and breathe the martial arts from an early age and can be both knowledgeable and physically competent enough to do it. Somewhat more common when the godan's parents or other family member is high ranked also and has been training them hard since day 1.

Respect for a Godan under 30 years old, based on my example above? YES...wholeheartedly!! Respect for a Judan at mid-30's, no, never!!

[sensei8]

My Sensei turned down a time served Godan after 35 years of training. He wants the full Physical grading test or nothing. He failed such a test this year; after six hours of hell they just said "See you next Year Sensei". One local instructor is a 5th Dan, he bought the Gracie franchise for £25,000, he's 34 years old. In who's Dojo would you rather be?

Your Sensei's dojo, of course!!

Fumio Demura refused rank advancements for many years. It wasn't until his Sensei reminded him that his students will pass him in rank, he therefore, with great tribulation, finally agreed.

Edited December 24, 2013 by sensei8

[sensei8]

My Sensei is 28 and a Yondan, but many people have assumed that he is a Godan or Rokudan based on how he moves and teaches--he is always sure to correct them. I suspect his Sensei will test him for Godan in the next year, or two, which gives him the possibility of reaching a "master" rank by the age of 30, but just barely. Judan rankings before the age of 50 baffle me, and even then I would expect some extreme circumstances to have occurred.

What your Sensei has and is doing concerning rank is spot on, imho. Your Sensei is not worrying about rank because rank, imho, is mute when one compares it to the value of applied effective knowledge and experience.