Defiant and Lazy

[CredoTe]

A few months ago, a 14yo boy joined our dojo; his parents were looking to get him involved in something that would motivate him, and he was looking to be involved with something in which he wouldn't get bored in 5 minutes...

This particular student, at ~6'2" (~1.879meters) tall and ~185lbs (~83.92kg), is too big to be in the youth class, so he's in the adult class. The problem with this is his mental maturity level is about that of a 12yo (he's not mentally challenged or anything, just immature). He really should be in the youth class, but we just cannot put him there.

During his time with us so far, we're discovering that this student has a tendency to be oppositional and defiant, but is expressed through passive laziness. When we're going through our exercises, kata, kihon, etc, he just goes through the motions with obvious lazy actions, like he can't be bothered to truly put effort into anything. Compounding this is that he's extremely uncoordinated; and, when we show him how to do something, and he does it once, ever after he truly thinks he performs the moves exactly perfect (no matter how utterly clumsy and lazy he still performs them). We're not sure if he's got some sort of ego/superiority complex, or if this is just his 14yo teenager attitude coming through.

While not aggressive, he sometimes deliberately violates dojo rules or etiquette (which earns push-ups or the like). When he starts to get too lazy or defiant, he is dismissed from the floor. He's starting to become a distraction to the class, to the real adults there, almost every class. I'm planning on having a chat with his parents about it, but I'm a little apprehensive about it because people/parents are so sensitive about their kids these days (which I know from experience this student's parents are). I'm not sure what else I can do.

In your experience, how have you dealt with similar situations? Anything more I can do? Anything less, or that I shouldn't be doing? While I don't like losing students, I don't think this student is going to last much longer (even if a way to successfully deal with him is found, he still may not last much longer, but I'd like to give an effort).

[Harkon72]

Some parents think that Martial Arts training is a quick fix for teenagers that can be challenging. They need to realize that Martial Arts are not for everyone, and that you must take into consideration the well being of the whole class. It was suggested to me that we take a member of our extended family to our class; 14 years old, 5'11" and a belly full of attitude. If our Sensei asked him to do pushups for example, he would shrug his shoulders and say "You can't make me", this is his answer to all attempts at discipline. They must be left to make mistakes and learn respect for themselves first; it may be painful, people will get hurt; but in some cases, bitter experience will be their best teacher.

[sensei8]

Speak with the parents!! Have the child in attendance with them during this conference. Then, emphasize what's expected of them, especially the child in question. Let them all know what the consequences will be if your expectations aren't meet. To learn the MA effectively, the student must take it serious and not be lacadaisical. And if the student can't follow your expectations, then show said student where the exit door is.

Can lead the horse to water, but, we can't force the horse to drink the water. A MA student has to want to do it, and in that, that can be a tricky thing to learn, including said instructors.

I don't need any student that just doesn't care, and in that, my patience does have it's limits.

Good luck!!

[mal103]

I once had a dad ask why his daughter wasn't taking part properly when he turned up at the end of the lesson, I had been trying to get her moving faster for 50 minutes but had given up and given her lesser Kihon to do.

I replied something about her probably being tired...

I have a few that need pushing, then pushing some more, but still won't shift!

I won't give up on them until they give up.

My latest plan with a few of mine is to give them single move Kihon or just stepping, until they are bored rigid. Then I will give the rest of the class something fun to do and tell them to sit out as they are obviously tired.

If they are wasting everyones time then don't spend anymore than you have to on them until they show some fire/spirit!

Another option is to try and find a senior grade that they are friendly with and set them up as a mentor, ask the senior grade to train next to them and assist them, at least they will be able to witness close up how fast others train.

Get them shouting or try some other tricks to get them going, free sparring, breaking out of a corner, resistance with belt holding, a form of competition.

Anything to try and bring out the tiger.

[hammer]

Another option is to try and find a senior grade that they are friendly with and set them up as a mentor, ask the senior grade to train next to them and assist them, at least they will be able to witness close up how fast others train.

Get them shouting or try some other tricks to get them going, free sparring, breaking out of a corner, resistance with belt holding, a form of competition.

Anything to try and bring out the tiger.

This.

The instructors routinely place BBs in class in line next to students who need help (and students with an attitude definitely need help). Gets them more motivated when they are next to someone who has more experience and maturity.

[CredoTe]

Yes, yes! Great advice from everyone, so far! Thank you

For now, before I do anything, I'm carefully considering all of the advice given here, so far...

[sensei8]

I once had a dad ask why his daughter wasn't taking part properly when he turned up at the end of the lesson, I had been trying to get her moving faster for 50 minutes but had given up and given her lesser Kihon to do.

I replied something about her probably being tired...

I have a few that need pushing, then pushing some more, but still won't shift!

I won't give up on them until they give up.

My latest plan with a few of mine is to give them single move Kihon or just stepping, until they are bored rigid. Then I will give the rest of the class something fun to do and tell them to sit out as they are obviously tired.

If they are wasting everyones time then don't spend anymore than you have to on them until they show some fire/spirit!

Another option is to try and find a senior grade that they are friendly with and set them up as a mentor, ask the senior grade to train next to them and assist them, at least they will be able to witness close up how fast others train.

Get them shouting or try some other tricks to get them going, free sparring, breaking out of a corner, resistance with belt holding, a form of competition.

Anything to try and bring out the tiger.

Solid post!!

[bushido_man96]

You have some options here. You can approach the parents, and the child, at the same time. Tell him and them that you want more committment out of him, less back talk, and you want him to work harder. This may motivate him to do so.

He may be doing this against his will, too. If that is the case, then he may not ever be motivated to do it. If this is the case, then tell him and his parents that if things don't change, you will be excusing him from the dojo, and he won't be allowed to train. Tell them you don't have time for someone who won't help themselves. In my experience, you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. If you have committed students who will listen and pay attention to you, then you need to focus on them, and tell them that you will if he continues to not listen to the advise and instruction that you give him.

Or, you could let him continue to plod along, but ignore him. Let him do things wrong. Let him mess up. Let him be lazy. Just ignore the fact that he is there. Maybe he will come around and ask for help. Maybe he won't. Maybe he'll drift out on his own. Maybe you let him test, and see what happens. Maybe he fails, and it motivates him, or he moves on. I know my last two suggestions sound kind of anti-what-the-arts-are-all-about, but in the end, what can you really do for this kid if he won't let you help him?

That's my 2 cents, anyhow. Let us know what you do decide to do.

[Nidan Melbourne]

Have a chat with the parents with him there in an office if you have one.

And make sure you emphasize the point that behavior like that is unacceptable and not tolerated.

We have a couple of students who are exactly like that in our adults class. But what my sensei has done (after having a chat with the parents) paired them up with the most senior student in the class and who is also the hardest worker.

Or like Bushido_man96 said that when he grades he'll probably fail and might motivate him. if he was in my class I would be working him to the point of exhaustion or make it so difficult that he asks for help.

Our students who are butt lazy have been worked hard every class that they turned up to and all have failed the most recent grading. The parents arced up of course (they asked how we could fail their son/daughters) until we told them that their child made little attempt at the grading and that we couldn't promote someone who doesn't actually try at gradings, and also that the child makes no effort to train properly. and until they start making an effort and stop being lazy they will not be eligible for a grading again

[Patrick]

I would just treat him as you would like to be treated. I like mal103's idea.

Managing online communities like this one, I've come to a simple understanding: when it comes to what I can expect from a person, attitude wise, I can pretty much throw age in the dumpster as far as it being a useful indicator.

I believe that a majority of all of the worst people I've ever had to deal with here, the people I have had to ban, the people who wouldn't follow a set of guidelines if you held it in front of their face every day for a year, were people in their late 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s.

What can I say about the 38 year old woman who flipped out, started spamming people, sending emails to members telling them how awful I was, hounding all of the moderators and talking about how they were all terrible at life? Was that her "teenage attitude"? Though it can be easy for one to become jaded, I don't go around saying "well, that's just adults for you" and that's that "adult attitude" coming through.

Meanwhile, some of the greatest members we've ever had, joined when they were teenagers. What does this tell me? Nothing. Nothing except for the fact that, when it comes to drive, motivation, a good attitude, etc., age pretty much means nothing.

There is an endless stream of adults who just skate by in life, putting in a half-hearted effort (or worse) in pretty much everything that they do. You know plenty of them, don't you? Of course, there is also a stream of teenagers who this applies to. In all, there is a stream of people, of all ages, who do this.

I'd encourage you to just treat a teenager like any other decent human being and also understand that it's not easy being a kid, especially a teenager because while you are growing to become an adult, you are still pretty much in charge of nothing. People expect you to act like an adult, yet you literally get almost none of the perks of actually being an adult. Heh.

As a reminder, you are all a member of an online community that was started by a 15 year old. It was incredibly frustrating when people approached me in this manner as I was trying to find my way. I remember one person told me, "I'm older than you, why should I respect you?" That always stuck with me and I've always endeavored to treat all members here the same, regardless of their age or experience in the arts.

Just something to think about.

Thanks,

Patrick