Need Help: Dojo Sparring Practices

[Jeffthefurrydog]

Hi

I've been looking at different karate dojos to train at. The way in which sparring is incorporated into training varies by dojo. I have no experience with karate, so I really do not know what to make of these differences in sparring practices. What I've seen so far are places that

1) Do not make contact. They stop their strikes before hitting their opponent. I guess this is so that they don't risk injuring someone, but is this as effective in teaching self defence as sparring that makes contact. I wouldn't think so. If not, why?

2) One of the dojo's does not practice sparring. This place has two man drills that practice the application of self-defence techniques but doesn't have any free sparring. When I first heard this, I thought they were leaving out what seemed to be a part of self-defence training necessary if you want the ability to put it into any kind of practical and effective use. But the teachers argument made sense to me.

Sparring, even sparring that makes hard contact, isn't meant to injure your opponent to the point where he is no longer a threat. In a real self-defence situation, you will want to render your opponent unable to harm you as quickly as possible. Through repetition, free-sparring gives you reflexes detrimental to that. Imagine that you are in a situation where your opponent poses a real danger, but you reflexively strike in a way as to avoid inflicting any serious harm. This could prolong the conflict, which would be dangerous to you.

Does anyone here agree? If not, what would be a counter argument?

While doing research online, I've found many people claiming that full-contact sparring is needed to teach practical self-defence. I actually have been unable to find a dojo that does full-contact sparring, though there are two more that I'm considering making a visit to.

If you believe that full-contact sparring is vital to effective self-defence training, why is that? If I can't find a place that does that, would you recommend a dojo with no-contact sparring, light-contact sparring, or no contact sparring? Why?

ThanksHe

[Wastelander]

It sounds like you have already done some research. Unfortunately, no one can seem to agree on this particular issue.

My personal opinion is that you need to train with contact against a resisting opponent if you want to be effective at self defense. I believe that "scenario drills" are probably the best way of doing this, but contact sparring works, as well. That said, I don't think "full contact" is really all that reasonable--MMA fighters and kickboxers certainly don't spar full contact, because they would be injured all the time if they did. A medium level of contact--something that would knock the wind out of you, or bloody your nose, if you were hit--is sufficient for daily practice. To test yourself, the best you can do is compete in some sort of full contact combat sport. I did an MMA fight, because it put me in a situation where I would have to deal with full contact strikes and grappling against an opponent who truly wanted to take me out.

[mal103]

Self defence drills are ok if done at speed but you must also do sparring. This is vital for reflexes and responding to any attack.

We normally build them up to free sparring and its all done with light contact to avoid injury, we add pad work to practice full power. If i got hit fully by a few of our guys then i would be in serious trouble.

Also consider the attack, its great if someone announces they are going to a stepping punch to your head and then wait until you apply a tricky sd technique... then consider 3 blokes attacking at close range, you need to move quickly on your feet, react fast and look for an opening to counter hard. There will be no time to think.

[Harkon72]

Sparring with no contact can be difficult as the control needed to execute full technique to stop them short is considerable. The value of such sparring is an issue that the jury has not returned upon; some consider it to be the ultimate test of skill, other see it as an utter waste of time. I'm in the second camp myself; you must make contact with your partner to experience the effect of your technique; of course you don't bash their brains out, you must test your skill against a non compliant, moving target. This is only my opinion, I see the dedication needed to achieve the poise of non contact karate for example, but for me the way is to pad up and get stuck in. They say all kung fu is contact, even tai chi exponents thrive on feeling the energy of their partner; as the master said; "Don't think, Feel..."

[mal103]

A test of a good black belt is to hit you just hard enough to let you know you have been hit but do no damage.

That's why sparring with brown belts is sometimes dangerous as if they get a good punch through it can hurt their opponent because they have put full power behind it.

[DWx]

For me the value of sparring is the spontaneity. OK to a point you know that your opponent can throw only x, y, z attacks or defenses under your rules but you don't know which one or when they will do it. Drill work is great for teaching specific responses to specific attacks but you will always know what you will be hit by and what your response should be. Unlike sparring you are already in a particular mind set and poised ready to move and respond in a certain way. IMHO drills should be incorporated into your training alongside sparring but shouldn't be the only thing you do if your goal is self defense.

In my style of TKD we say that prearranged is the learning of platoon tactics, sparring the field exercise. Both culminate in actual combat or self defense.

[Nidan Melbourne]

It is frustrating by the sounds of it to have no contact. where I train we have varying amounts of contact that is allowable. such as is awase kumite where we a good flow of techniques but is light contact (best for our juniors). Then point sparring for our competition students. Light sparring which is a lot of contact but you still need control (sweeps takedowns throws and leg kicks allowed)

And lastely full contact which our black belts and certain brown belts are allowed to do

[AdamKralic]

Put me in the "contact is important" camp.

Even if it means taking a occasional hard shot.

Nothing teaches faster than pain. It's why we can feel pain in the first place! To immediately tell you *no. not that. do not repeat that mistake.* Be it touching a hot plate or leaving too large of an opening for too long in karate.

[Nidan Melbourne]

Put me in the "contact is important" camp.

Even if it means taking a occasional hard shot.

Nothing teaches faster than pain. It's why we can feel pain in the first place! To immediately tell you *no. not that. do not repeat that mistake.* Be it touching a hot plate or leaving too large of an opening for too long in karate.

Exactly!!!

You get hit one too many times in a spot you learn to go "no not going to get hit there again"

[bushido_man96]

Hi

I've been looking at different karate dojos to train at. The way in which sparring is incorporated into training varies by dojo. I have no experience with karate, so I really do not know what to make of these differences in sparring practices.

Welcome aboard, and I want to wish you luck as you start your MA journey. It looks like you are doing your homework, which is important when deciding where to study at. Let's tackle each of the these questions...

1) Do not make contact. They stop their strikes before hitting their opponent. I guess this is so that they don't risk injuring someone, but is this as effective in teaching self defence as sparring that makes contact. I wouldn't think so. If not, why?

There are a few schools of thought on this style of sparring. One, is that it teaches control. The thought here is that if you can control a hard, fast technique to a specific target area without making contact, then you should be able to use the same control to make contact when necessary.

The other school of thought is that it teaches bad habits. I tend to agree that it can teach bad habits. What I've seen happen is that respecting what a technique can do as a defender goes out the window because the defender never actually has to block or evade anything. So, they don't learn how to defend it properly. The other side of that is that the person throwing the techniques doesn't get that kinesthetic feedback of what happens when you hit someone; how to offset your balance and things like that. Also, what you think is a good combination thrown in the air without making contact may not be realistic when you are actually close enough to hit someone and see how they react.

2) One of the dojo's does not practice sparring. This place has two man drills that practice the application of self-defence techniques but doesn't have any free sparring. When I first heard this, I thought they were leaving out what seemed to be a part of self-defence training necessary if you want the ability to put it into any kind of practical and effective use. But the teachers argument made sense to me.

Sparring, even sparring that makes hard contact, isn't meant to injure your opponent to the point where he is no longer a threat. In a real self-defence situation, you will want to render your opponent unable to harm you as quickly as possible. Through repetition, free-sparring gives you reflexes detrimental to that. Imagine that you are in a situation where your opponent poses a real danger, but you reflexively strike in a way as to avoid inflicting any serious harm. This could prolong the conflict, which would be dangerous to you.

These two-man drills can be very beneficial training tools, if they are done properly, and incorporated into some kind of sparring, or something that is "alive" as far as training applications. I think the instructor's explanation has some good points, but I don't like the aversion to sparring altogether. It lends itself towards the "our stuff is too dangerous to be hitting each other with" mentality, which isn't the case with the training gear available today.

With that said, I won't presume to know what this instructor teaches in two-man drills, or how he does it. Two-man drills can come in many forms, like one-steps, or bunkai training (training of the applications of the moves of forms/katas). One-steps can be a good training tool, but I feel that they are only a step in the training ladder, and should evolve and grow out of their pre-planned-ness.

While doing research online, I've found many people claiming that full-contact sparring is needed to teach practical self-defence. I actually have been unable to find a dojo that does full-contact sparring, though there are two more that I'm considering making a visit to.

If you believe that full-contact sparring is vital to effective self-defence training, why is that?/quote]

Full-contact can be beneficial to self-defense training, for sure. You have to learn how to block/counter/evade attacks committed to hitting you and taking something out of you. There's value there, much like the value of grappling full tilt. You have two opponents meeting each other with resistance, trying to make their things work for them, while defeating the other's attacks. The thing is, the body can only take so much of that kind of training. You have to rest and recover, or you can't train.

If I can't find a place that does that, would you recommend a dojo with no-contact sparring, light-contact sparring, or no contact sparring? Why?

Now, the ideal training place, and I think tallgeese would agree with me, would have a conglomeration of all the types of sparring listed above, and mix up the training accordingly. No-contact, to work on developing sound technique and refining things like footwork, body position, etc. Two-man drills would allow for the refinement of technique with a partner who gives you targets and limbs to attack, twist, etc. You get your reps in at different levels with different partners to learn how to tweak things when you need to. Two-man drills would also include different things like pad work and the like. Finally, you would have some medium-level contact sparring to teach you how to hit and get hit, without really getting beat up. This would lead into the full-contact, which would be done to bring it all together, like training for a fight or for self-defense.

That's my long spiel on sparring. Keep looking into the schools available in your area, and most important of all, keep in mind what your goals for sparring are (self-defense, competition, etc), ask the instructors what their sparring goals and methods are, and then make your decision based off the information you cobble together.

I hope this helps out. Keep us posted, and let us know what you decide to do. I look forward to hearing more from you on KF!