Asking my Church about teaching Karate.

[AndrewH]

So, I am currently only at 4th Kyu, but testing soon for 3rd. I have been holding myself back for tournament purposes and my Sensei wants me to test in March for Black Belt. I know all of the kata and I have put plenty of time in grade.

Getting to the point, I am looking to start my own dojo soon after I finally get my Shodan. My Church doesn't have any martial arts club, so I feel like that would be a fantastic place to get my start. I'm wondering how to approach to ask though, and can I charge? It is kind of awkward. Can anyone help me out?

[Harkon72]

I'm sure you can ask them, just point out the benefits to the community a martial arts club can offer.

One question, going from 4th Kyu to Shodan in 6 months is very sudden. in our club that transition would take at least two years; are you testing for each grade or is your Sensei doing one Grading to test you straight to Shodan?

[mal103]

Same question....

There are no short cuts in Karate, maybe a couple of double grades if they have done it before or are really keen.

A few clubs orgs promote people too early so they can fill a teaching slot and they can be fine teachers but shouldn't miss on their Brown belts training period as that is when the most improvements are made. The 6 months as a 1st Kyu is there for a reason, they should be doing their syllabus/Kata without thinking and fine tuning their stances, positioning etc. This is a vital part of being a Black belt. No good trying to teach if you are not near perfect yourself.

I started teaching very early as a Shodan and assumed it would be mostly beginners but suddenly had a load of senior grades show up, are you happy to stand infront of a Black belt and teach them? What will you teach? How will you reply when someone asks "what's this move is for"?

If your Sensei is willing to break the general rules and grade you straight to Shodan because you think you know the kata needed then I suggest you go to another club. Also compare yourself with their equivalent students, see if you're better than their Brown belts? Maybe try a few clubs as the difference can be extreme.

You may think I am being harsh - well I am. It annoys me that most clubs/orgs/associations do a good job, we follow the guidelines, we turn out good Karate-ka, we set our standards high so you know they have earnt it when they pass it. Then you hear of people getting given a grade so they can fill a teachers post, or grade themselves to make them sound more impressive, or someone comes and trains with you and they are rubbish.

If my Sensei came up to me one day and said he was going to grade me to Sandan early so we had more senior ranks I would tell him to shove it (respectfully) - not that he ever would suggest it in the first place.

He tells a story of when one of the big names offered him a Black belt for £100, he obviously said no thanks as he didn't think he was ready. The big name replied with "just as well because if you had said yes I would never have graded you Shodan, ever". 6 months later he passed no problems.

[AndrewH]

I have been at this grade for a long time. The tests are generally every six months, but I have been declining promotion to keep fighting intermediate because I have not been happy with my fighting. Up until the last tournament, I took two second places in a row. I have been competing with Seiyunchin, our brown belt kata, and taking first.

My Sensei wants me to progress because I have put in a lot of instruction and he wants another judge from our dojo at the tournaments to make sure our guys aren't getting cheated. It has been happening lately, but that isn't what this thread was supposed to be about...

To the point: My kata are strong and sharp, and I am proficient with all bunkai and the history (which more people should be) I have no problem with speaking and I am a teacher by trade. I already know the ins and outs.

[CredoTe]

Same question....

There are no short cuts in Karate, maybe a couple of double grades if they have done it before or are really keen.

A few clubs orgs promote people too early so they can fill a teaching slot and they can be fine teachers but shouldn't miss on their Brown belts training period as that is when the most improvements are made. The 6 months as a 1st Kyu is there for a reason, they should be doing their syllabus/Kata without thinking and fine tuning their stances, positioning etc. This is a vital part of being a Black belt. No good trying to teach if you are not near perfect yourself.

I started teaching very early as a Shodan and assumed it would be mostly beginners but suddenly had a load of senior grades show up, are you happy to stand infront of a Black belt and teach them? What will you teach? How will you reply when someone asks "what's this move is for"?

If your Sensei is willing to break the general rules and grade you straight to Shodan because you think you know the kata needed then I suggest you go to another club. Also compare yourself with their equivalent students, see if you're better than their Brown belts? Maybe try a few clubs as the difference can be extreme.

You may think I am being harsh - well I am. It annoys me that most clubs/orgs/associations do a good job, we follow the guidelines, we turn out good Karate-ka, we set our standards high so you know they have earnt it when they pass it. Then you hear of people getting given a grade so they can fill a teachers post, or grade themselves to make them sound more impressive, or someone comes and trains with you and they are rubbish.

If my Sensei came up to me one day and said he was going to grade me to Sandan early so we had more senior ranks I would tell him to shove it (respectfully) - not that he ever would suggest it in the first place.

He tells a story of when one of the big names offered him a Black belt for £100, he obviously said no thanks as he didn't think he was ready. The big name replied with "just as well because if you had said yes I would never have graded you Shodan, ever". 6 months later he passed no problems.

Absolutely fantastic post! Only detail I can add is that, for us, the time required from 1st kyu to Shodan is at least 1 year...

[mal103]

Some Brown belts take longer as they find it difficult to just train and train hard with 100% effort, even when doing basics, if they can't get over this mental hurdle then they should not grade.

Andrew - i'm not trying to be nasty but I read from your last post that you either didn't feel ready to grade or you enjoyed winning as your skills had moved above your belt level.

If you were not ready to grade then why do you think you are suddenly ready to grade up 4 levels? Are all of your fellow students happy to see you get a leg up the ladder? Will they show you any respect?

I know of a 1st Kyu who kept turning down his Shodan grading because he liked winning competitions against other Brown belts, eventually nobody would fight him. Very poor attitude.

Here's the final thing I was looking for "my Sensei wants another judge"

Regardless of the reason, this is not the way...

You shouldn't be given a Black belt, or be awarded one - you become one.

As for the church, good luck if it's the right location, I enquired about hiring a church hall and was told yes until I told them it was MA. Apparently the far eastern philosophy goes against christian values...

[Wastelander]

To answer your question, you simply go up to your pastor/minister/etc. and tell them that you've been training in martial arts for X number of years and would be interested in starting a program if they would be willing to host it. I've known several people to start programs at their church, and it works out just fine. Some people don't want martial arts in their church because they feel it promotes violence or worship of other religions, and at that point you can either talk to them about those issues or just let it be.

All that said, I'm afraid I have to echo everyone else's sentiments regarding your rank. Holding yourself back on ranking for competition purposes is called "sandbagging," and is very frowned upon--people have been banned from competition for it, before. As far as triple-grading from Sankyu (since you say you're testing for that soon) to Shodan in just 6 months, that seems like a bad idea. If you didn't feel ready to test for Sankyu all this time, then you probably shouldn't feel ready to test for Shodan in 6 months. I know I wouldn't.

[JohnASE]

Before approaching church officials, it might be a good idea put together a plan, or at least give thought to some of the details. That would include how much you'd charge (yes, you can charge) and how much might go to the church. The main things dojos charge for include dues, testing fees, and equipment sales. Would you donate a portion of each, or maybe just dues? You could pay a flat hourly fee for the space or come up with something based on class size. You might want to collect a little extra money to cover expenses such as kicking shields or other targets if you use them. One thing someone else might be able to chime in on is insurance. Are most churches insured for something like this, or would a new policy be necessary? If so, you might need to figure that into dues.

Regarding your rank, even if you were a brown belt, you might be able to manage a beginner program on your own, as long as you had the help, support, and guidance of your sensei. If your students progress more quickly than your ability to teach them, maybe you can refer them to your sensei's dojo.

[Nidan Melbourne]

I am concerned that your withholding your promotions because your not happy with your kumite. But do you honestly spar consistently with more experienced people that can apply pressure on you, so you can improve your skill?

As most people improve over time and fighting more experienced and more difficult opponents.

Like Mal103 said you shouldn't be sandbagging yourself because you want to be winning at competitions. And deciding to quadruple grade is disrespectful to everyone at your dojo because it is basically saying to everyone that you think your better than they are and you don't really care for putting the time in to training in each of those grades.

I have many friends throughout Australia that are 3rd Dan and above (one of which is an 8th Dan). And they have never done more than a double grading. And only one has ever double graded 4 students (in the 40 years that he has taught).

And since you want to grade from sankyu to shodan in less than a year it isn't very advisable. Especially since you said you weren't ready to grade.

Even if it is because your sensei wants other judges so other students won't get cheated. As you might struggle for a shodan grading. Because this isn't an appropriate reason to promote someone to shodan (or any rank at all). Like Mal103 said you don't get given one or awarded one but become one.

As the one thing your doing by sandbagging yourself is cheating yourself out of is experience and mat time.

But i am NOT trying to put you off doing anything, but you can do what you feel like your really ready for.

But back to the point that you want to open your own school. Speak to the minister in charge of the church, as they will be able to determine if it is really appropriate for a MA to be in a church.

[sensei8]

Rank up when it's appropriate, and not whenever it fits. Time heals all wounds, but rushing rank can only hurt ones betterment as a MAist. Rank up when it's right, and not because you want it; you shouldn't want rank because you're shouldn't be learning the MA for the sake of rank alone.

Imho!!

As far as your question about the church. Speak with the pastor about it, and see what he/she says, including charging for the lessons and the like. Many churches don't allow the MA to be taught at their church for many reasons, and whether we like the reason(s) or not, it's their church.

Good luck!