MA in Crisis: McDojos & Tournament-itis & MMA

[sensei8]

I think the McDojo title gets tossed around a bit much, and I think that there are probably more quality schools and instructors out there than there are McDojos.

I was an ATA member early in my career. I felt that the training I received and the instuctors I had were very high quality. And yes, the school/club did try to make money. Its easier to stay open that way.

Its well-known that the ATA has its own tournament circuit, too. Its a decent circuit, and its all kept "in-house," so to speak, with the use of a "Top Ten" points system, and regional, national, and a worlds tournament held yearly. Tournaments can be a great money-maker for a school or region, and also a great advertisment in and of itself.

Now, all that said, I don't think the desire to compete is a bad thing, and I don't think an instructor should limit a student's ability or opportunity to compete in tournaments. Tournament desire can really push one to work hard and understand what it takes to set reasonable objectives towards obtainable goals, and how to set about doing this. These are good skills to learn.

Now, it is the job of the instructor to make it understood that there is a difference between tournament competition and self-defense, and the relevance of tournaments should be kept in check.

I don't think that "traditional" styles will die off. However, I do think that they can benefit from some changes. I know that no body wants to hear that, really, because the traditional training style is what has been done for x years, and all that. Most likely, changes have been experienced along the way, but they've been so few and so far back, they are accepted as the norm, when they might not have been. I think cross-style tournament competition could be a great training experience. Learn how a DT instructor would teach things.

Another thing "traditional" styles need to realize is that since there are more training options out there, the "traditional" style won't always be the first choice for someone. A Wrestler who just got out of high school, with no college prospects, may gravitate to a BJJ school or an MMA gym. There are more choices available now, and if a prospective student doesn't like the stricter atmosphere of a "traditional" school, but prefers the looser atmosphere of an MMA gym or some BJJ schools, that will affect their decision, as well.

So, there are a lot of factors at work in the world of MAs now. I think it will constantly cycle, ebb and flow. And generate concern in equal cycles.

Solid post!!

[CredoTe]

Great post, bushido_man96, and you make some good points.

I think the McDojo title gets tossed around a bit much, and I think that there are probably more quality schools and instructors out there than there are McDojos.

I think you're probably right that the "McDojo" label gets tossed around a lot, and that some dojos are errantly labeled. But, I've visited many schools in my area, and IME, the McDojos have the upper hand. Maybe it's just my area in Ohio, and maybe it's just IMHO...

I was an ATA member early in my career. I felt that the training I received and the instuctors I had were very high quality. And yes, the school/club did try to make money. Its easier to stay open that way.

Its well-known that the ATA has its own tournament circuit, too. Its a decent circuit, and its all kept "in-house," so to speak, with the use of a "Top Ten" points system, and regional, national, and a worlds tournament held yearly. Tournaments can be a great money-maker for a school or region, and also a great advertisment in and of itself.

Many of the McDojos I visited had positive, energetic instructors that are great at what they do in their dojos / tournaments. Trying to make money doesn't make one a McDojo, I agree.

Now, all that said, I don't think the desire to compete is a bad thing, and I don't think an instructor should limit a student's ability or opportunity to compete in tournaments. Tournament desire can really push one to work hard and understand what it takes to set reasonable objectives towards obtainable goals, and how to set about doing this. These are good skills to learn.

Now, it is the job of the instructor to make it understood that there is a difference between tournament competition and self-defense, and the relevance of tournaments should be kept in check.

Tournaments / competition in and of themselves aren't necessarily bad. While we certainly don't push tournaments on our students, when we have students that want to go to one, we support them. If they're a first-timer, we instruct them in how tournaments function; the difference between the kumite we do and how tournament sparring works, etiquette, kata, etc. We instruct them that there are good things about tournaments, like practicing with people they don't know.

If a student joins an MA strictly as a sport, like any sport, that can foster good things. However, training strictly for tournaments doesn't have real bearing for self-defense. If they're not training for self-defense, that's OK. But, it's like you said, it is the instructor's job to explain the difference. What I am alluding to, and what's part of the heart of the issue at the McDojos I experienced, is that they try to pass off their tournament styles as "the real Karate / MA that works in any situation".

I don't think that "traditional" styles will die off. However, I do think that they can benefit from some changes. I know that no body wants to hear that, really, because the traditional training style is what has been done for x years, and all that. Most likely, changes have been experienced along the way, but they've been so few and so far back, they are accepted as the norm, when they might not have been. I think cross-style tournament competition could be a great training experience. Learn how a DT instructor would teach things.

Another thing "traditional" styles need to realize is that since there are more training options out there, the "traditional" style won't always be the first choice for someone. A Wrestler who just got out of high school, with no college prospects, may gravitate to a BJJ school or an MMA gym. There are more choices available now, and if a prospective student doesn't like the stricter atmosphere of a "traditional" school, but prefers the looser atmosphere of an MMA gym or some BJJ schools, that will affect their decision, as well.

I think they will die off unless we figure out how to change; not necessarily a particular art itself, but maybe training methods, or something. Again, we need to look at ourselves to figure out what needs changed, and to others to get an idea of how to change.

[Aodhan]

I was an ATA member early in my career. I felt that the training I received and the instuctors I had were very high quality. And yes, the school/club did try to make money. Its easier to stay open that way.

Its well-known that the ATA has its own tournament circuit, too. Its a decent circuit, and its all kept "in-house," so to speak, with the use of a "Top Ten" points system, and regional, national, and a worlds tournament held yearly. Tournaments can be a great money-maker for a school or region, and also a great advertisment in and of itself.

Now, all that said, I don't think the desire to compete is a bad thing, and I don't think an instructor should limit a student's ability or opportunity to compete in tournaments. Tournament desire can really push one to work hard and understand what it takes to set reasonable objectives towards obtainable goals, and how to set about doing this. These are good skills to learn.

Now, it is the job of the instructor to make it understood that there is a difference between tournament competition and self-defense, and the relevance of tournaments should be kept in check.

I don't think that "traditional" styles will die off. However, I do think that they can benefit from some changes. I know that no body wants to hear that, really, because the traditional training style is what has been done for x years, and all that. Most likely, changes have been experienced along the way, but they've been so few and so far back, they are accepted as the norm, when they might not have been. I think cross-style tournament competition could be a great training experience. Learn how a DT instructor would teach things.

Another thing "traditional" styles need to realize is that since there are more training options out there, the "traditional" style won't always be the first choice for someone. A Wrestler who just got out of high school, with no college prospects, may gravitate to a BJJ school or an MMA gym. There are more choices available now, and if a prospective student doesn't like the stricter atmosphere of a "traditional" school, but prefers the looser atmosphere of an MMA gym or some BJJ schools, that will affect their decision, as well.

So, there are a lot of factors at work in the world of MAs now. I think it will constantly cycle, ebb and flow. And generate concern in equal cycles.

I am also ATA, and I agree with everything above. In our schools, at least (Our instructor owns 11), they are looking at some of the quality, and starting to push testing out to 4 times a year. This is not to say that our quality is bad, but that we want to structure our instruction slightly differently to get a better martial artist.

The other thing that comes through is the ego of martial arts. There is a special cachet to being a black belt, and many seem to feel that if someone else is not that great a black belt (according to whatever mystical standard is established) that it somehow diminishes their own accomplishment. This is simply not true.

Martial arts has, is and always will be evolving. I can pretty much guarantee that if you take some of the best martial artists around from today, and drop them in the middle of a hand to hand battle from a few hundred years ago, that very few of them would survive. It's simply the nature of the beast. Techniques change and adapt to the times, and the simple reality is that very very few martial artists will have to put their skills to the test.

So if you get 40 y/o dad and 37 y/o mum wanting to take classes with their kids, and they work hard and achieve a black belt a few years down the road, and maybe they can't fight off the 25 year old punks that shove a gun in his face. Does that diminish your art and your belt achievements? No matter the art, you can either train to the minimum necessary to get that next rank, or you can train to your own full potential. And, even if you train to your own full potential, there will be someone out there that can knock you on your butt in no time flat.

I've been in martial arts since 1985ish, and I've seen these same arguments go round and round that entire time. Martial arts is still here, it's no more "watered down" because of ineffective black belts than it ever was, and we are still here having the same arguments. Do the best you can in class, learn everything in class, and hope that if you do have to use your art, it's not against the guy that can knock you on your well trained butt.

John

[CredoTe]

...

So if you get 40 y/o dad and 37 y/o mum wanting to take classes with their kids, and they work hard and achieve a black belt a few years down the road, and maybe they can't fight off the 25 year old punks that shove a gun in his face. Does that diminish your art and your belt achievements? No matter the art, you can either train to the minimum necessary to get that next rank, or you can train to your own full potential. And, even if you train to your own full potential, there will be someone out there that can knock you on your butt in no time flat.

...

Yes, we often tell our students that at any time, there's always someone out there who's better than you and can take you out. Humbleness and awareness

[sensei8]

That's why it's known that a black belt in one school isn't a black belt in another...not even close...miles away!!

[Sifu88]

I know I’m new here but I saw this thread and really wanted to participate.

I believe we are definitely living in an important age in the martial arts. Like it or not we have to accept that MMA has changed martial arts, for better or for worse that's for each one of us to decide for ourselves.

I myself am not a fan of MMA but cannot deny its impact and I do believe there was some good that came of it more so from the original UFC.

I guess the negative side would be the mindset that has always existed among people of "my way is the best way" is kind of amplified now more than ever, if you're not a BJJ guy or an MMA guy you have no credibility to some, in certain markets, the city I live in for example, that can make things tough.

That being said I think BJJ is WONDERFUL for ground fighting, do I believe all fights will/should end up on the ground? No. Do I believe that BJJ is what you need if it does? Yes, so I have begun training in it as well. And to try and make a long point short I think that's what this era we're living in is all about, it's forcing us to look at ourselves as martial artists and instructors, at what we're learning, what we're teaching and how it can be used most effectively.

I try and learn/teach with a mixture of practicality and tradition which is why I love the quote from O'Sensei in my signature. I really believe that the goal right now is not to become MMA gyms but also not to be close minded we need to find a balance as in all things and I think people will respond to that, those that are looking for meathead based training lol can go to the one of many meathead MMA gyms, those that are looking for something more serious will have their options as well.

I think we need to remember who we are as members of the martial arts community because due to the internet, those people that just want to start trouble and bad mouth others have quite a formidable medium to use.

I don't believe the traditional martial arts will die out because there will always be those that train in/teach it the right way for all its physical AND mental benefits we're just going to have to modify the way we market ourselves to the public and be mindful of the sport market that is ever growing due to MMA.

While it is annoying to constantly have to make the distinction between what we do and MMA due to the fact that to the general public there seems to be little difference I think it is something we will have to live with for a while, maybe a long while.

[Aodhan]

I know I’m new here but I saw this thread and really wanted to participate.

I believe we are definitely living in an important age in the martial arts. Like it or not we have to accept that MMA has changed martial arts, for better or for worse that's for each one of us to decide for ourselves.

I myself am not a fan of MMA but cannot deny its impact and I do believe there was some good that came of it more so from the original UFC.

I guess the negative side would be the mindset that has always existed among people of "my way is the best way" is kind of amplified now more than ever, if you're not a BJJ guy or an MMA guy you have no credibility to some, in certain markets, the city I live in for example, that can make things tough.

That being said I think BJJ is WONDERFUL for ground fighting, do I believe all fights will/should end up on the ground? No. Do I believe that BJJ is what you need if it does? Yes, so I have begun training in it as well. And to try and make a long point short I think that's what this era we're living in is all about, it's forcing us to look at ourselves as martial artists and instructors, at what we're learning, what we're teaching and how it can be used most effectively.

I try and learn/teach with a mixture of practicality and tradition which is why I love the quote from O'Sensei in my signature. I really believe that the goal right now is not to become MMA gyms but also not to be close minded we need to find a balance as in all things and I think people will respond to that, those that are looking for meathead based training lol can go to the one of many meathead MMA gyms, those that are looking for something more serious will have their options as well.

I think we need to remember who we are as members of the martial arts community because due to the internet, those people that just want to start trouble and bad mouth others have quite a formidable medium to use.

I don't believe the traditional martial arts will die out because there will always be those that train in/teach it the right way for all its physical AND mental benefits we're just going to have to modify the way we market ourselves to the public and be mindful of the sport market that is ever growing due to MMA.

While it is annoying to constantly have to make the distinction between what we do and MMA due to the fact that to the general public there seems to be little difference I think it is something we will have to live with for a while, maybe a long while.

Welcome!

MMA is to martial arts as Riverdance was to Irish Dance (My wife was a competitive Irish dancer and is now a teacher), or Bobby Fischer to chess in the 70's. You see an initial explosion of interest, mass registrations, and then it dies back again, to a slightly higher level than before.

Everyone that says "Oh, MMA is REAL fighting", no. It's another contest according to certain rules. No downward elbows, no groin shots, no biting, no eye gouging, etc. Yes, it's a harder contact and punishing sport, but it's still not a street fight.

I was at a weekend regional camp this weekend, and one of our senior masters made an excellent point, in that many many techniques across all martial arts are the same. So, if you have a cup of coffee in a cup labeled "ATA TKD", and you pour it into a cup of coffee labeled "Krav Maga", does the coffee change? Or just the container that it's in?

Now, yes, there are some distinctions and variations between martial arts, and that is where your cream and sugar come in. Some people like a little cinnamon, honey, etc.

What's going to happen is that you will see tons of people rushing to sign up at MA and MMA schools, discover that it's actually hard work and often painful, and drop out. But, you'll get some that will love it, and will stay.

John

[Nidan Melbourne]

I would love to put an add in our papers stating we train REAL Karate but then it sounds wrong and annoys the others...

I know the feeling. Even at my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu academy I often want to put that we train "Real" Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. And it's a relatively new art form. It's just that, with all the tourneys and "no-gi" grappling stuff out there, too many are losing the point of BJJ's inception. Which was self defense.

So here's an art, developed in 1925, that already has a great deal of watering in less than 100 years.

Whaaa..?!? Ya'll in BJJ/MMA are experiencing the same thing?!? Stick a post-it on my forehead and call me "stupid"...lol I didn't think you guys had to deal with this; that this is one of the main reasons MMA came about...

As I mentioned in my thread starter about MMA seeming to figure it out for themselves, what did you do, or continue to do, to figure this out? Style aside, what are you guys on the lookout for in terms of "watered down" JJJ/BJJ/MMA and "McMMAs"? For instance, what does your specific BJJ/MMA gym do (or don't do) to "keep it real"?

I can't speak to MMA, which is a sport in and of itself.

But in BJJ, there are three factions.

1. Traditionalists: Those who believe the system was developed for Self Defense using leverage based techniques with a focus on grappling over striking. It should be trained primarily in a gi because the gi slows things down and allows you to become very technical. Free rolling should be done both with and without striking and is always best to start standing because that's where most confrontations begin. --->>>> This is where most of the Gracie Family falls. It's also an art, not just a sport.

2. Players: These are the guys who do BJJ and believe it's just a sport. They don't practice it as a self defense art. They may be quite skilled but honestly don't know/care what to do if someone is striking at them.

3. Pretenders: These are usually all no-gi guys that trained a little bit and feel they are experts. They see no use for the gi and usually focus on physical attributes over technique. They'll pump iron for 3 hours then go "grapple." These guys annoy the heck out of me.

I agree with the three categories that you have listed for BJJ. Where i train for BJJ caters for all 3 categories. and when you sign up, they ask you if your wanting to learn the traditional system, the "sporting" system where you compete, or no-gi.

My issue with the no-gi option ("pretenders" in the list) is that they wear skin tight clothing. How often do they actually think that their walking along a street and someone comes along and attacks them whilst wearing that skin tight clothing? Most normal people wear comfortable clothing that isn't like what i just described. So they are going to struggle to know how to apply techniques that they have learnt. And that they go on for their physical attributes are more important than technique. BUT what happens if someone picks a fight with them that knows how to fight and can stop them in their tracks.