How Important Is Kata In Shindokan Saitou-ryu?

[sensei8]

Kata is a training method that uses a pre-determined series of movements, the serious study of which will reveal to the student an infinite number of karate techniques, combinations, and applications. In other words, the more you study kata, the more it becomes as an educational resource.

Kumite comes from real fighting, so you need an opponent which is limiting. Kata evolved from kumite as a way of training without a partner. If you study kata seriously you will discover within it a wealth of techiques, theory, and knowledge.

For example, there are some techniques performed from Shiko-dachi position in kata, but this stance is not used in real fighting, but is included in the kata to improve muscle power and balance. This is why kata is a training method.

Emphasis on practicing drills with a partner is important because if you don't train with a partner, you will never learn how they move or fight. However, we must understand that this is only supplementary training, the main part of karate is the study of the kata.

People say that they know the kata so why do they need to keep practicing them. What they mean is that they know a sequence of movements, which of course, is only a small part of the scheme of things. The point of studying kata, as opposed to just performing it, is to learn what the applications of the technqiues are, and how to use them. You need to learn how to apply your power, how to move, how to react, and so on and so forth.

These things you can learn from studying the kata, then practice with a partner during kumite training. For example, you can experience the feeling of being attacked, then use a technique(s) derived from said kata to successfully overcome and subdue your attacker.

Kata competitions, for the most as of lately/recently, in sport karate is quite disturbing. It is clear to me and anyone with a knowledge of real karate, that neither the performers or the judges who take part in these competitions have any idea of the purpose of kata, imho.

It's not about the trophy; it should be about kata. To compete is fine, but to ignore the simple concept that karate kata is composed of data collected from numerous historical conflicts, and they've been passed on from generation to generation, and which has enormous practical value.

If they understood this, they wouldn't change anything in the kata. What competition karate is doing, intentionally or otherwise, is disrupting karate's hereditary information for the purpose of public enjoyment. It's a pity that they are missing the point entirely, and as a result their karate has no value whatsoever.

Competition is fine and all, but missing the context of said kata isn't what karate is all about, or at least it shouldn't be, imho.

Ok, I'll go back to my corner!!

[sensei8]

Lots of view, yet, no replies, as of yet, 1 year later.

Any thoughts?

[cheesefrysamurai]

I understand what you mean about kata.

Its something I would have never understood before taking a traditional art. It starts out as a sequence of moves to memorize. As time goes on and you settle into it becomes a moving mediation where you hone the movement and you really begin to enjoy it. Then you begin to break down the individual strikes and blocks, again another level of honing. Then it starts looking and feeling like it really should. Then as weird as it sounds you start seeing the kata differently, you start appreciating the angles and the targets that become available, bunkai starts to make sense.

Its certainly an underestimated side of traditional arts. This development is very satisfying.

I don't have such a problem with competitive kata. I DO WISH IT LOOKED EXACTLY AS IT WAS MEANT TO, NO EXTRA FLOURISHES THOUGH.

You are right about the context but then again, the context is within us. The dojo is the place for it I agree but demonstrating kata seems appropriate almost anywhere there is a reason to.

Who are the judges? are they partial? Are they qualified? What qualifications would be needed? I cannot answer these questions so i am not sure how valid the trophies really are but I wouldn't take anything away from people that won one. Its an achievement for sure.

[DaveB]

Judging Kata performance is akin to judging a javelin thrower on how beautifully he lifts weights in the gym. To do this at all misses the point of kata, as has been stated.

That said I think the team kata with an appĺcation segmeby is a nice idea. Synchronicity is a difficult skill and one that has a value in combat.

What I dislike is a tendency to aesthetics in the application part.

I think it would be better if the kata was announced at the time the competitors stepped onto the mat. Then that would be a real test of combative synchronicity as well as well as of their application knowledge. The application segment would be self defence focussed and the ability to make realistic and powerful attacks as well as defend effectively could all be judged with much less subjectiveness and bias.

That would be a competition worthy of martial artists IMO.

[DaveB]

Emphasis on practicing drills with a partner is important because if you don't train with a partner, you will never learn how they move or fight. However, we must understand that this is only supplementary training, the main part of karate is the study of the kata.

I'm not sure I agree with this. At least I think that partner work and Kata study should be one and the same.

Even the bookish Funakoshi said that karate must not be a wholly intellectual pursuit.

We can learn fighting without kata, but we cannot learn kata without fighting.

[cheesefrysamurai]

Emphasis on practicing drills with a partner is important because if you don't train with a partner, you will never learn how they move or fight. However, we must understand that this is only supplementary training, the main part of karate is the study of the kata.

I'm not sure I agree with this. At least I think that partner work and Kata study should be one and the same.

Even the bookish Funakoshi said that karate must not be a wholly intellectual pursuit.

We can learn fighting without kata, but we cannot learn kata without fighting.

I agree with sensei8's statement. Why? Its not about intellectual pursuits. Its that the truth of karate is hidden in the kata. Its the playbook, the map, and through training and working it over and over, its secrets unravel.

You don't have to know kata or karate for that matter to know how to fight, but you cannot know karate without its kata.

As sensei8 said in that quote knowing kata doesnt mean you know how to fight, thats what partner training is for.

Goju ryu without its kata isn't goju ryu. As in Shindokan Saitou-ryu, its in its blood, its the the very essence.

[Nidan Melbourne]

For example, there are some techniques performed from Shiko-dachi position in kata, but this stance is not used in real fighting

actually Surprisingly enough you can do shiko dachi to help prevent being tackled in a fight. Which is common in some situations

As it is a stable stance, and if you scoot back when you are low then you can avoid the tackle but also send them to the ground.

[DaveB]

Cheesyfry

We're on the same page about kata's importance. What I was disagreeing with was the suggestion that partner training was "supplementary" to kata study.

IMO partner training IS kata study. I don't think there should be a distinction or de-emphasis of either aspect. One does not work without the other.

[sensei8]

I understand what you mean about kata.

Its something I would have never understood before taking a traditional art. It starts out as a sequence of moves to memorize. As time goes on and you settle into it becomes a moving mediation where you hone the movement and you really begin to enjoy it. Then you begin to break down the individual strikes and blocks, again another level of honing. Then it starts looking and feeling like it really should. Then as weird as it sounds you start seeing the kata differently, you start appreciating the angles and the targets that become available, bunkai starts to make sense.

Its certainly an underestimated side of traditional arts. This development is very satisfying.

I don't have such a problem with competitive kata. I DO WISH IT LOOKED EXACTLY AS IT WAS MEANT TO, NO EXTRA FLOURISHES THOUGH.

You are right about the context but then again, the context is within us. The dojo is the place for it I agree but demonstrating kata seems appropriate almost anywhere there is a reason to.

Who are the judges? are they partial? Are they qualified? What qualifications would be needed? I cannot answer these questions so i am not sure how valid the trophies really are but I wouldn't take anything away from people that won one. Its an achievement for sure.

Solid post!!

I believe that how "Kata" is viewed by ones instructor speaks a lot about how Kata is trained, how it's appreciated, and how it's devalued across the board. The knowledge passed onto the students comes from the instructor!!

[sensei8]

Judging Kata performance is akin to judging a javelin thrower on how beautifully he lifts weights in the gym. To do this at all misses the point of kata, as has been stated.

That said I think the team kata with an appĺcation segmeby is a nice idea. Synchronicity is a difficult skill and one that has a value in combat.

What I dislike is a tendency to aesthetics in the application part.

I think it would be better if the kata was announced at the time the competitors stepped onto the mat. Then that would be a real test of combative synchronicity as well as well as of their application knowledge. The application segment would be self defence focussed and the ability to make realistic and powerful attacks as well as defend effectively could all be judged with much less subjectiveness and bias.

That would be a competition worthy of martial artists IMO.

Solid post!!

I do like what you say about team kata and its application portions, and having the kata announced at the time of stepping on the mat, and then see how they apply their Bunkai on the cuff.