A Kyu "Challenges" A Dan!!

[xo-karate]

I'm with ps1 on this one. There is a big difference between challenging a dan grade, or even the instructor, and requesting to spar with them. Though I can understand it being a 'no-no' to an instructor. But, why no explanation to students ? Are these rules well known, posted up etc ? This is important as the etiquette changes from school to school, even within a style, never mind an art.

I'm sorry , but in both the case of sensei8 and Tkd&bjj's tales. The more I've thought about it, the more I would view it as arrogant bullying.

I don't get it? Why does a black belt need to show off to a white belt?

If a white belt does not know how to behave, what about just explaining it?

Black belt does not have to do anything - there is no way a white belt can get any submissions on a black belt...

I think we need more instructors education!!!

[ps1]

It is considered rather rude to challenge a bjj black belt if you are a colored belt. I have seen a white belt wrestler challenge my coach to roll as he had no partner.

Master. No.

Student:why not.

Master: Give me 20 push ups.

Student: does 20. let's go now.

Master:proceeds to grab guy by gi and kick off the mat going nuts.

The black belt is a high level bb who has competed at Adcc, and is somewhat of a phenom.

Is throwing the student off the mat better than smashing him?

Respectfully, I am a BJJ black belt under Pedro Sauer. It's not rude to ask me, or any other black belt to roll. It's all about how it's done. If I was in the middle of teaching a class and the guy asks, I'd simply say, "during open mat." If he keeps pushing the issue, that borders more on the "challenge match" type of thing. But that wasn't the issue in the scenario presented.

I've trained with many world champs and none were ever upset with me for asking for a roll. I've only ever been turned down if there was a good reason (injury, no time, ect..).

[MasterPain]

It is considered rather rude to challenge a bjj black belt if you are a colored belt. I have seen a white belt wrestler challenge my coach to roll as he had no partner.

Master. No.

Student:why not.

Master: Give me 20 push ups.

Student: does 20. let's go now.

Master:proceeds to grab guy by gi and kick off the mat going nuts.

The black belt is a high level bb who has competed at Adcc, and is somewhat of a phenom.

Is throwing the student off the mat better than smashing him?

Respectfully, I am a BJJ black belt under Pedro Sauer. It's not rude to ask me, or any other black belt to roll. It's all about how it's done. If I was in the middle of teaching a class and the guy asks, I'd simply say, "during open mat." If he keeps pushing the issue, that borders more on the "challenge match" type of thing. But that wasn't the issue in the scenario presented.

I've trained with many world champs and none were ever upset with me for asking for a roll. I've only ever been turned down if there was a good reason (injury, no time, ect..).

In my area, we have some MMA schools and I come from a hybrid art. To train with a BJJ black belt, or someone with similar experience in a primarily stand up or weapons system, involves a bit of travel. Going through the trouble of getting there and not having the opportunity to get beat up in their particular area of expertise would be disappointing. To have it happen that way because of a rule against asking would really turn me off.

[IcemanSK]

As has been said above, where I've trained gup/kyu students spar with Dan rank all the time. In the situation described in the OP, the repeated challenge after the request was denied that is the issue at hand.

I'll tell a story from my early gup student days that happened in my dojang. One day, before class started, 2 Dan rank were sparring as the rest of us stretched, awaiting our master's (a Korean man) arrival to begin class. One of the BB's, was our dojang's champion. He had done quite well at World Championships a few years before. The other BB, was a young Korean master our master had brought in to groom to perhaps take over a branch dojang.

As the 2 men sparred, one accidental low kick, turned into a cheap shot. And next thing we know, these two are going at it in a real fight in the middle of the floor! Our master walks through the door just as the other BB's in the room are struggling to separate the two men. How did my master handle this?

He told the young Korean master to leave immediately, just as he was. Don't change, just leave! To our champion, he said to get dressed & see him in his office. This was only to give the 1st man time to leave the area to prevent a dust-up in the parking lot. He told our dojang's champion that because of his actions, he is no longer welcome as well. Neither man ever came back. Our dojang really never missed either man.

If I was the CI in the OP above, the Dan rank would be longer welcome to train their as of that moment he laid out the kyu student. I would speak with the kyu student & explain that the manner in which he asked the Dan rank to spar was inappropriate, & to not do it again, or he too, would be shown the door. In Korea, the OP's Dan would get away with that. Not in my school. It's not acceptable behavior.

[ps1]

It is considered rather rude to challenge a bjj black belt if you are a colored belt. I have seen a white belt wrestler challenge my coach to roll as he had no partner.

Master. No.

Student:why not.

Master: Give me 20 push ups.

Student: does 20. let's go now.

Master:proceeds to grab guy by gi and kick off the mat going nuts.

The black belt is a high level bb who has competed at Adcc, and is somewhat of a phenom.

Is throwing the student off the mat better than smashing him?

Yeah. The only major player that didn't roll with me was Royce Gracie. But that was because the seminar host had scheduled an early flight and Royce had to catch a plane only two hours after the seminar ended.

Especially in BJJ, where seminars cost hundreds of dollars, rolling is important. Proving your technique is always encouraged.

Respectfully, I am a BJJ black belt under Pedro Sauer. It's not rude to ask me, or any other black belt to roll. It's all about how it's done. If I was in the middle of teaching a class and the guy asks, I'd simply say, "during open mat." If he keeps pushing the issue, that borders more on the "challenge match" type of thing. But that wasn't the issue in the scenario presented.

I've trained with many world champs and none were ever upset with me for asking for a roll. I've only ever been turned down if there was a good reason (injury, no time, ect..).

In my area, we have some MMA schools and I come from a hybrid art. To train with a BJJ black belt, or someone with similar experience in a primarily stand up or weapons system, involves a bit of travel. Going through the trouble of getting there and not having the opportunity to get beat up in their particular area of expertise would be disappointing. To have it happen that way because of a rule against asking would really turn me off.

I know what you mean.

The only person who ever refused to roll was Royce Gracie. But ath was only because the seminar host had scheduled his flight too soon after the seminar. Basically, he had to run out the door to catch his flight.

Edited April 29, 2013 by ps1

[kensei]

Moaning, the Kyu slowly lifts its head and is wide-eyed expression tells you everything you need to know, but more importantly it tells you the Kyu is only shook up but not hurt physically...pride...well...that's quite hurt.

As the CI...

1) Now, what do you do?

 

2) Do you counsel the Kyu or the Dan or both?

 

3) Was the dojo rules broken?

1. I give the black belt a tad bit of a talking to as a senior he/she should be adult enough to have not harmed the guy...but seeing as he was shaken up a and not really hurt...its only a short talking to...then I explain protocal to the junor and help him up.

3. No dojo "rule" was broken, just a minor breach in the "protocals" that are unwritten and I will have to do damage control with the junior to ensure he realized that it was not personal and its a hard lesson to learn.

When do you, as the CI, enforce the kun?

The Dojo Kun was not broken...if the lad had broken ribs or was hurt more than his pride then it would have been broken, from what you say the Black belt showed great controla nd did not hurt the student.

The fact is that some clubs have different cultures attached and you need to be flexible in those. I remembe going to one club were they had kind of double standards. Black belts would approach students to spar and everythign was fine but if the white belts or lower belts approached a senior, to even ask a question, they were beat up pretty bad. Then a senior would always ask "outside" stuff of some of the students, like how to figure out what was wrong with their car...I always thought it would be fair for the student to then charge 10 times the amount as it is basically the attitude they got in Karate!

However, most clubs only have a thin veil of this kind of old culture now.

[Himokiri Karate]

I dont see anything wrong or disrespectful

In boxing gyms it goes like this:

Me:Hey bro could you spare me a round or two of sparring?

Douglas:No worries dan, we can start of doing lead left sparring then go all out the second round

No harm no foul and if the guy is sore then no worries you ask someone or you just go back doing your technique training/push ups and situps...

[sensei8]

It appears that my hypothetical has reached up and bit me.

Ask once...yes...ask twice...yes...ask however many times...yes...but...ask disrespectfully...no.

Bully? Depends on how ones perception views it.

In the hypothetical...

1) The Kyu's request to spar was granted.

2) They began to spar.

3) The Kyu left its middle totally opened, thus unprotected.

4) The Dan took advantage of said opening.

5) The Dan helped the Kyu up and made sure the Kyu wasn't injured.

To me, this isn't bullying or teaching a "lesson"; it's two karateka's engaged in kumite.

[sensei8]

Tackett Sensei has a rule at his dojo...

"Never ask any senior to spar. The senior can ask the junior."

He's pretty serious with this rule.

As I've said before...I've seen this throughout many dojo's, thus, from what I've seen for myself, I used it to create this hypothetical for us to discuss.

[bushido_man96]

Tackett Sensei has a rule at his dojo...

"Never ask any senior to spar. The senior can ask the junior."

He's pretty serious with this rule.

As I've said before...I've seen this throughout many dojo's, thus, from what I've seen for myself, I used it to create this hypothetical for us to discuss.

Its a good hypothetical, too.

In my experience, I think its important for the high ranks to be there to teach and help the lower ranks learn. Sparring is an important area to increase learning in, and a high rank/dan rank should be able to teach a lot to a colored belt about sparring. The lower rank should use tact when asking for this, but most of us can tell if its a request to learn or a challenge. High ranks should help low ranks.