A Kyu "Challenges" A Dan!!

[sensei8]

What I'm gathering from what Bob is describing is that the kyu rank is not only asking the Dan grade to spar, but doing it in a challenging way-- like an "I'm going to take you down" sort of way. In my opinion, that changes the whole situation.

A kyu rank asking a dan rank to spar in order to learn from him/her is perfectly fine and even laudable in my opinion. But anyone asking anyone to spar as an unfriendly challenge-- regardless of rank-- is a no no to me. I don't think that sort of attitude has any place in a modern martial arts school and the kind of schools that do support that attitude are not ones I would patronize.

If I were a school owner and saw an interaction like that at my school, I would speak very seriously to the kyu student first and lay down that we don't do things that way here-- we're a team here to help each other learn. If he/she can't handle that, they need to find another school. For the dan grade, I would tell them next time something like that happens, don't give into the pressure. They did the right thing in the beginning by refusing-- they should have kept that up and if the kyu rank wouldn't drop it, seek the support of an instructor. Basically-- I would give both a warning. If the same thing happened again, we'd have problems.

Bingo!!

Edited April 21, 2013 by sensei8

[sensei8]

Hold the wagon for a moment.

THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL!! Nothing more!! I apologize for not making that more clearly understood.

For the sake of having a conversation!! That's why I've asked some of the questions that I did.

I've visited dojo's in the past, those that are not Shindokan dojos, where a Dan can ask a Kyu but not visa versa, and if so, it was considered a sign of disrespect or looked upon as a challenge.

Please don't read anything into it!!

[ShoriKid]

Hold the wagon for a moment.

THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL!! Nothing more!! I apologize for not making that more clearly understood.

For the sake of having a conversation!! That's why I've asked some of the questions that I did.

I've visited dojo's in the past, those that are not Shindokan dojos, where a Dan can ask a Kyu but not visa versa, and if so, it was considered a sign of disrespect or looked upon as a challenge.

Please don't read anything into it!!

Sensei8, there are more dojos that aren't so cool with a kyu asking a dan grade to spar than one might think. I came up under a couple of different instructors who taught us that you can ask once, respectfully. After that it enters the realm of "challenge" and that's a whole different matter. Heck, I've was taught to turn my back from the instructor/class to straighten my belt/gi. When I asked why after class once my sensei told me that facing up to another karateka, especially dan grades, and straightening/popping your belt was a non-verbal way of issuing a challenge. He said to think of it like walking up to a man in the old west and clearing your coat from your gun belt so your pistol showed.

Now, to the original question.

What do you do? Pick up the kyu grade, ask if they are okay. Make mention, so that everyone gets it that asking once is okay, asking more is disrespectful.

Do I council the kyu or the dan grade? Not really. See above. This is a general lesson that everyone can get.

Was kun broken? I don't think so. Not ours. We are pretty lose on a lot of the formalities, but there are some rules about respecting one another. Higher grades have put in the time, blood, sweat and tears to get what they have. Respect that. Higher grades, your job is to bring lower grades along. Don't kill them for being stupid.

So, kyu grade was disrespectful of the dan grade. Dan grade didn't break the kyu grade.

As CI

Do I enforce the dojo kun every time? Yes.

Am I consistent in enforcing rules? As much as real life allows for.

Am I consistently fair in enforcing the rules? I hope so and strive to be.

In enforcing the rules are you the bottom line or the bottom rung? The buck stops here. However, the buck shouldn't get passed to start with.

[bushido_man96]

It sounds to me like this situation took care of itself rather well. As we say in the LEO profession, NFA: No Further Action.

If there are hard and fast rules about this kind of conduct for the school, then I would perhaps advise that the student be pulled aside advised and or reminded of these rules, perhaps provide a copy to be read over, and leave it at that.

I think its good that a kyu rank would want to spar a dan rank. It shows one of two things: 1. he wants the opportunity to learn from a higher rank, or 2. he thinks he can take the higher rank. Either way, the kyu will learn a lesson. I'd hope its #1 they are after, and not #2, but sometimes, that stuff happens.

Like I said earlier, it looks to me like this situation policed itself rather nicely.

[sensei8]

Look,

I've asked Dai-Soke if he wanted to Kumite with me...just AFTER...he's was training with our Soke...WHILE...they were just having a after class light discussion.

Well....

This wasn't allowed!! He was on the floor with our Soke, being taught by our Soke, and we were ONLY allowed to observe...not interfere!!

I knew what he meant when he barked at me...BAKA-SAMA...He just called me a fool, not just a fool, but a big fool.

I was Hachidan! But, the floor at this time was ONLY for Soke and Dai-Soke. Remember, Soke only had ONE official student...Dai-Soke!! Their times on the floor were their's and I was on their floor at the very wrong time. I assumed I was "allowed" on the floor...but Soke hadn't released Dai-Soke from class YET!! I assumed...class was over. Even then, I should have asked permission to approach them.

Rank and all don't mean a hill of beans when ones intrusive and unwanted.

My bad!!

[ps1]

This was one of the reasons I became disenchanted with Karate. Why would it ever be a bad thing for a kyu to ask a dan to spar. As long as it's done politely, of course. The dan should welcome the opportunity to train his/her moves and the kyu certainly has something to learn. We like to walk around and say things like "you learn more from teaching" or "I learn as much from training with white belts as I do black belts." Then, when the opportunity for such learning is upon us, we smash it like a bug on a windshield.

What would I have done in the situation?? I would have publicly humiliated the dan rank for thinking his belt color made him somehow more important than the other person. Then, i would have commended the kyu rank for initiative, and the courage to test himself for weakness.

[sensei8]

This was one of the reasons I became disenchanted with Karate. Why would it ever be a bad thing for a kyu to ask a dan to spar. As long as it's done politely, of course. The dan should welcome the opportunity to train his/her moves and the kyu certainly has something to learn. We like to walk around and say things like "you learn more from teaching" or "I learn as much from training with white belts as I do black belts." Then, when the opportunity for such learning is upon us, we smash it like a bug on a windshield.

What would I have done in the situation?? I would have publicly humiliated the dan rank for thinking his belt color made him somehow more important than the other person. Then, i would have commended the kyu rank for initiative, and the courage to test himself for weakness.

The above bold type answers your own question...

"Why would it ever be a bad thing for a kyu to ask a dan to spar."

In this hypothetical, the Kyu wasn't politely asking after the Dan refused his initial invitation to spar. The Dan refused the Kyu at first because the small group of Dan's were training among themselves. Ask once, then disappear if politely refused, which is what the Dan did at the first invitation.

Then the Kyu asks again impolitely! This is why he was launched. Don't ask the question if one doesn't want the answer; the Kyu got the answer!

I never refuse anyone, no matter the rank, to engage in any training. That's how we all learn, even me, no matter the rank "teaching" me. But if I politely refuse, for whatever reason(s), the invitation, don't be rude and don't ask me why.

[ps1]

A Kyu ranked student has ceremoniously approached a tiny gathering of Dan ranked students; there's nothing unusual about that, it happens all of the time. However, it's what the Kyu student ASKS, that's a no-no.

You idly watch from a short distance away as the scene unfolds.

This Kyu student asks if any of the Dan ranks want to kumite. As the Dan's begin to stare at each other in wonderment at the Kyu's unbelievable lack of proper respect for the dojo rules.

You clearly state that the student approached respectfully. That the question was the "no no."

IMO, Asking a senior grade to spar is always a good thing. The senior grade has the right to say no. But asking is not a bad thing.

[Tkdampbjj]

It is considered rather rude to challenge a bjj black belt if you are a colored belt. I have seen a white belt wrestler challenge my coach to roll as he had no partner.

Master. No.

Student:why not.

Master: Give me 20 push ups.

Student: does 20. let's go now.

Master:proceeds to grab guy by gi and kick off the mat going nuts.

The black belt is a high level bb who has competed at Adcc, and is somewhat of a phenom.

Is throwing the student off the mat better than smashing him?

[andym]

I'm with ps1 on this one. There is a big difference between challenging a dan grade, or even the instructor, and requesting to spar with them. Though I can understand it being a 'no-no' to an instructor. But, why no explanation to students ? Are these rules well known, posted up etc ? This is important as the etiquette changes from school to school, even within a style, never mind an art.

I'm sorry , but in both the case of sensei8 and Tkd&bjj's tales. The more I've thought about it, the more I would view it as arrogant bullying.