A Kyu "Challenges" A Dan!!

[sensei8]

You're the Chief Instructor (CI) of the ABC Karate Dojo. It's a Saturday afternoon open workout; all ranks permitted.

You're meandering around your students, closely observing them, offering assistance whenever asked, and conducting impromptu lessons from time to time.

Your students are seriously engaged in their workouts, either by themselves or in small groups of 2-4, over a wide variety of techniques, and drills or involved with a training apparatus or some light kumite.

Just past the half-way point of this open workout, something catches your eyes and ears.

A Kyu ranked student has ceremoniously approached a tiny gathering of Dan ranked students; there's nothing unusual about that, it happens all of the time. However, it's what the Kyu student ASKS, that's a no-no.

You idly watch from a short distance away as the scene unfolds.

This Kyu student asks if any of the Dan ranks want to kumite. As the Dan's begin to stare at each other in wonderment at the Kyu's unbelievable lack of proper respect for the dojo rules.

The Kyu asks the Dan's again. The most senior of the Dan's walks up to this Kyu and politely refuses the invitation, bows, and instructs the Kyu to re-assume whatever training the Kyu was doing before.

The Kyu asks the Dan's again! The most senior Dan agrees and instructs the Kyu to don the appropriate safety gear. They bow.

Your gaze is at fever pitch, then you slightly grimace because the Kyu's wide open and you already know what's about to happen.

WHAM! THUD!

The Kyu's prostrated on the floor about 3 feet back from where the Kyu once was before the Dan launched the Kyu with a beautiful lead-leg side snap kick.

Moaning, the Kyu slowly lifts its head and is wide-eyed expression tells you everything you need to know, but more importantly it tells you the Kyu is only shook up but not hurt physically...pride...well...that's quite hurt.

As the CI...

1) Now, what do you do?

 

2) Do you counsel the Kyu or the Dan or both?

 

3) Was the dojo rules broken?

When do you, as the CI, enforce the kun?

4) Everytime?

 

5) Are you consistent in enforcing the rules?

 

6) Are you consistently fair while enforcing the rules?

 

7) In enforcing the rules, are you the bottom line or the bottom rung?

Thoughts?

Edited April 21, 2013 by sensei8

[DWx]

Forgive me but is this a rule specific to Karate (or your style)?

In my dojang anyone can spar anyone and if a colour belt asks a dan grade to spar, this is usually totally ok and the pair will go off and spar at a level appropriate for the weaker student. Often the better student will use it as a teaching point and coach the other one on how to spar better.

Although I agree that rank does demand a certain level of respect, I think situations like these further the idea that a blackbelt is above everyone else and adds to the whole untouchable status.

But in your scenario, if I were the chief instructor, I would leave the situation as it is. The kyu grade has learnt their lesson and I think the dan grades should some restraint. Perhaps I would talk to both but then again I don't see this as a major travesty.

[Wastelander]

I'm with Danielle on this one--I don't see asking a dan grade to spar as being disrespectful, and it happens all the time at my dojo. In fact, I'm a kyu grade at the moment, and I ask dan grades to spar just about every time there is sparring being done. I'm respectful to dan grades, but asking people to spar is completely normal to us, regardless of rank.

If I were the chief instructor in your scenario, I would be having a talk with the dan grades about humility and mutual respect.

[moriniuk]

I'm with the 1st two replies.

Never heard of a kyu grade asking a dan grade to spar being a 'no-no' before.

Always best to try to spar with people who are better than yourself in order to improve.

Sounds like an inappropriate response from the dan grade to me.

[mal103]

In most situations we spar with similar grades but we also mix it up so that Dan grades will spar with Kyu - or even beginners.

It sounds like your "rules" are very much against mixing Dan/Kyu, you made it sound like the scene from Oliver when he was asking for more food!

Also if it was a child Kyu and your Dan was an adult that is bordering on abuse or assault, the fact he/she was knocked down means it must have been hard enough to cause injury.

I would say that the Dan grade was well out of order, if he agreed to spar then he should have used more restraint, i've read a book where a "famous" Karateka was annoyed at someone so when it came to partner up he chose this person so he could give him a good punching - totally wrong way of using MA or training - in my opinion.

So to answer your questions, not as a CI but in the interest of conversation.

1) Now, what do you do? - speak to all of the Dan grades

2) Do you counsel the Kyu or the Dan or both? - maybe both, the above is a good way of losing students.

3) Was the dojo kun broken? - depends on how you read it or other rules you train by. We always instruct light contact below Dan grades and add an extra warning if a senior grade is matched with a much lower grade - especially when kids are involved!

When do you, as the CI, enforce the kun?

4) Everytime? Yes!

5) Are you consistent in enforcing the rules? There will always be situations that test you and your methods, each student is also different, they could have learning disabilities or just be very different students, all of whom may have different ideas on what is acceptable.

6) Are you consistently fair while enforcing the rules? I suspect we all try our best...

7) In enforcing the rules, are you the bottom line or the bottom rung? In theory the rules and ideals should be set at the top and emulated by all.

[Lupin1]

What I'm gathering from what Bob is describing is that the kyu rank is not only asking the Dan grade to spar, but doing it in a challenging way-- like an "I'm going to take you down" sort of way. In my opinion, that changes the whole situation.

A kyu rank asking a dan rank to spar in order to learn from him/her is perfectly fine and even laudable in my opinion. But anyone asking anyone to spar as an unfriendly challenge-- regardless of rank-- is a no no to me. I don't think that sort of attitude has any place in a modern martial arts school and the kind of schools that do support that attitude are not ones I would patronize.

If I were a school owner and saw an interaction like that at my school, I would speak very seriously to the kyu student first and lay down that we don't do things that way here-- we're a team here to help each other learn. If he/she can't handle that, they need to find another school. For the dan grade, I would tell them next time something like that happens, don't give into the pressure. They did the right thing in the beginning by refusing-- they should have kept that up and if the kyu rank wouldn't drop it, seek the support of an instructor. Basically-- I would give both a warning. If the same thing happened again, we'd have problems.

[mal103]

I see that I may have misunderstood the situation and I apologise, my thoughts on the second scenario would be slightly different...

I would certainly talk with the kyu grade, it sounds like he/she was being over confident and should stick to sparring with their own level, especially if they were seeking a full contact spar.

I would still criticise the Dan grade though, I may have been okay with them sparring but the Dan grade just blocking their attacks with a fair amount of force, enough to know they weren't going to get anywhere and only blocking to make them look foolish.

But then you can't expect to spar with someone at a higher level and not expect to take a knock.

I suppose we would have to witness the scene to know exactly how to try and answer but for some times there is no right answer. To stop them from sparring the kyu may have then boasted that none of the Dan grades would fight with them...

[xo-karate]

why did the kyu have to ask 3 times?

why did he have to challenge an opponent ?

there is somerhing wrong with the spirit in the dojo.

too much cowboy western mentallity?

maybe a mma gym?

[andym]

3) Was the dojo kun broken?

When do you, as the CI, enforce the kun?

I , like many others , am puzzled by this response by the Dan grade. 'The Kun' ( the [dojo] oath) that i know of , make no mention of anything like this. Dojo etiquette, maybe. But the question is, is this information posted up in the dojo ? Is it well known with in your dojo that a kohai (lower grade) can ask something of a senpai (senior student) ? All in all puzzling with out more detail.

[andym]

In fact thinking about this a bit more. Most Dojo I know, encourage lower grades to spar with higher grades to improve the lower grades sparring ability. Now I'm even more puzzled.