Common Ground/Respect

[still kicking]

I have been a member of KF for quite some time now, sometimes more actively than others. Patrick has done a great job of keeping this site going for so long, and maintaining a certain level of respect. As he recently pointed out re: one of my posts, we (mostly) only know one another through our words, and it is sometimes difficult to ascertain intention or meaning. I feel the need to say, at this point, that although peoples' words are mostly respectful, I sometimes wonder about the amount of respect from those who like to spar hard contact towards ones who don't, and I suppose this goes both ways. Not to single anyone out, but in a very recent reply to a post about the value of sport karate, evergrey wrote:

The full contact knockdown tournaments I go to don't involve any punch bulling, LOL! The medic works overtime. Half the photos of my friends from the last tournament are of them lying on the mat with the dude in blue gloves kneeling over them!

My immediate response to this, in my mind, was "and this is admirable how?"

I do not consider myself to be a "tippy tappy hobbyist", and I do not think that it is respectful to reduce other martial artists to that characterization, any more than it would be respectful for me to think of people as crude neanderthal head bashers. It seems to me a bit pretentious to say that "karate is a way of life", as a modern day person, but really, something that is so instrumental in helping me strengthen, improve, and develop my body, mind, and spirit, is definitely more than a hobby. I'm sure that's true for most people that are interested enough to read KF. I think that even to make somewhat disdainful comments (which I have probably done myself) about elementary school children might discourage some of the smarter elementary school children who know how to read from following this site. We want our children to read, don't we? They are the senseis of the future, and maybe they haven't figured out yet whether they are mostly interested in self defense, sport karate, or professional fighting. Personally, I would like to see KF as a place where all martial artists can feel that their ideas are valued and respected, and though I know that is Patrick's intention, I would like to ask everyone to think about what I am saying.

The fact is, apparently contrary to some of your experiences, and although I live in a large U.S. city, I do not go around regularly getting into fights on the street! A long ago boyfriend hit me once, but I got rid of him in a hurry. Another time, in my previous incarnation as a karate-ka, a jerk came up behind me on a stair well and grabbed my butt. My bad for not being more aware. I responded by swinging around and roundhouse kicking him in the head (he was several steps below me) with medium contact only, which gave me a few seconds to assess the situation and get ready to fight, but he put up his hands, said "whoa", and slithered off. Other than that, all of my self defense situations have involved avoiding, defusing, de-escalating, etc. I work in the mental health field, and regularly have to undergo trainings on these topics as part of my work, and I feel that my karate training gives me more confidence and ability to stand my ground and be calm in these situations. If it came to it I could evade, block, or put someone in an arm lock. It would not look good if I went and slugged a client in the jaw, but in an extreme situation, which is highly unlikely to arise, I would be prepared to do so.

My position on it is this. I feel that sparring with medium to medium hard contact to the body, no or light contact to the head, is right for me. There has been plenty of pain and fear and bumps and bruises over the years, from partners hitting too hard or making more contact to the face or head than intended, to give me the confidence to know that I wouldn't just buckle into a heap in a "real situation". In the unlikely even that a stranger came at me out of the blue and started beating on me, before I was able to evade or run away, I am quite sure that I would fight hard, but that remains to be seen. I might get hurt some, and it would be a sucky day, but it makes no sense to me to purposely subject myself to the same kind of beating on a regular basis in class so that, what, it would be a familiar scenario on the street? It just so happens that my city has recently experienced an unprecedented number of random shootings, to where the whole population is on edge. Of course, all of the newspaper article comments can be broken down into "guns, we all need more guns" and "guns, guns are the problem, let's ban them". It sometimes seems that the two sides will never seem eye to eye, and maybe that's the case with full contact vs. lighter contact sparring. In any case, I am certainly not about to sign up for a class where I get to experience being shot three or four times a week, just so I am better equipped to deal with it in "real life". Sheesh.

So people, please let's all get along, we're all in this together! Sorry for the long post, but it's been a long time coming.

[MasterPain]

Whether spoken or not, people are biased to their own side. Cultural norms, parental guidance, moral compass or Terms of Service can make a person be civil. That is excellent. Civility should be the norm. But respect beyond civility can not be truly given on ethics or by force of rule alone. To expect such is to cheapen real respect. If everyone with a serious disagreement could be as civil as here, there would be no war.

Something else to consider, it is entirely possible to respect someone while thinking that one view they hold is ridiculous. Lots of people respect me who don't believe in aliens or evolution. Try as I might to sway opinions, many will still consider those dumb. And that's okay.

[bushido_man96]

Some people who train one way may not ever respect the way other people train on the other end of the spectrum. Some may be able to discuss that in a respectful manner, though, and that's what we want here.

I think its also important to keep in mind that just because someone doesn't agree with how others might do things, that it is automatically disrespectful to them. Its just a difference in opinions, and some people won't sway. That's not necissarily disrespect, either. Just differences.

[Dobbersky]

Martial Arts is like Politics,

In the UK we have 3 major Parties

Conservatives

Labour

Liberal Domocratics

Now all because 1 of the Parties is the Ruling Force in this Country does NOT stop anyone from having their political views

Same as with Martial Arts, Its what's best for THEM. I've read what is told in the press about various issues with the "Softer" arts how they don't prepare their students for actual combat, its like teaching Soldiers to shoot weapons using broom handles or teaching Divers/swimers to dive/swim on the sand.

Now if Non Contact was not a modern invention then the Okinawan styles would be doing it too.

I get fed up of people saying to me "Oh but you don't punch to the face" but wouldn't take a body shot or a thigh kick from us. Us Full Contact guys may Neanderthals be at least we don't have issues when it comes to being hit full on.

t

I HATE it REALLY HATE it when I read in the press about a Karate Black Belt gets beaten up by X Y Z, because they don't say its fro a Non/Semi Contact Ippon Kumite Sports Karate style, they just say Karate so WE FULL contact guys get tarnished with the same Brush.

I have respect for ALL KarateKa for their training but I cannot and will not justify Non-Contact Ippon Kumite Sports Karate Sparring as nothing more than a "game of tick"

A Yudansha in Karate SHOULD be able to compete in ALL competitions if required, NOT just one that suits their criteria!

It sickens me that MMA and BJJ and all the other styles etc are becoming more popular and these styles are harder and tougher than our tippy tappy stuff that we have to offer. Do you all not realise you are KILLING Karate!!! Because Johnny's Mum doesn't want Johnny to have a bruise on his arm but wants him to be a 10 year old 4th Dan Black Belt

I DO NOT and will NEVER issue an ADULT black belt to anyone younger than 16 and I honour every Adult Black belt who joins my club to allow then to wear their black belt and their first grade would be Black Belt Grading, but a Child Black belt WILL wear a White belt and begin from the beginning

Edited June 6, 2012 by Dobbersky

[evergrey]

Well, my post was in reply to how sport karate involved punch pulling. I didn't realize it was a style called sport karate. I was just stating that there are tournaments (considered the sport side of things) where people are not trained, by the sparring, to pull punches. *shrugs*

[DWx]

Interesting post still kicking.

I think part of the problem (if it is one) is that on KF we have people from such diverse backgrounds. Not only does everyone have different experiences and mindsets with regards to their training and their martial arts, we've also got an array of different cultural backgrounds here too. But that's the beauty of of online communities. We're going to have different opinions and are not always going to agree on everything. I think things would be very boring on here if everyone agreed all the time; discussions would be very one dimensional. My experiences as a TKD practitioner living in a tiny village in rural England are going to be totally different to a Karateka who grew up in a major US city. But like you said, respect is crucial no matter what our opinions.

However, along with respect, I think its important to bear in mind that people also communicate differently and that things are easily misinterpreted online. I don't think everygrey necessarily meant that as disrespectful but it could be interpreted as such. For example, when I say "sport-Karate" I mean a different thing to semi-contact or light-contact sparring; they're not one and the same. But for others they might be so misunderstandings occur.

[hiddendragon98]

Whether spoken or not, people are biased to their own side. Cultural norms, parental guidance, moral compass or Terms of Service can make a person be civil. That is excellent. Civility should be the norm. But respect beyond civility can not be truly given on ethics or by force of rule alone. To expect such is to cheapen real respect. If everyone with a serious disagreement could be as civil as here, there would be no war.

Something else to consider, it is entirely possible to respect someone while thinking that one view they hold is ridiculous. Lots of people respect me who don't believe in aliens or evolution. Try as I might to sway opinions, many will still consider those dumb. And that's okay.

solid post by master pain!

[tallgeese]

This is one of those issues that the older I get, the more I mellow on.

Coming out of a stand up style that was pretty heavy contact at times, I used to have a zero level of respect for people who knowingly trained in no or minimal contact training. My point of view was that karate was for combat and if you weren't training maximally for that you were a dancer.

Here's the thing, I've gotten older and wiser. A bit. Martial arts has grown into an entity that is large enough to encompass all sorts of goals of individual participants. If someone is looking for a safe, athletic outlet centered aesthetically around older combat arts, it's there for people. For people interested in cultural preservation by practicing an art unchanged since it's founding on roots of old combat arts, it's out there. There are, few and far between, even those old arts out there for people, that haven't evolved along and thus they can practice just like combatants did at the turn of the last century. For people wanting combatives and self defense, there are camps aplenty. Weapons, sure, which ones are you interested in?

The catch is to realize what you really want to do and find a match. All of them are okay. Just find the right one. In fact, the practitioner that fits his (or her) desire to the right art, regardless of what those goals are, probably deserves more respect than the artist that accepts a poor fit due to labels.

What really works me up, still, is arts that make a claim to one or more of those goal areas and really can't or don't live up to them. There's nothing wrong with being a sport school. Just don't claim that you're teaching self defense. There's nothing wrong with integrating weapons or grappling to your skill set, just don't sell it as a long forgotten aspect of your art. Go out and learn those things, bring them back, integrate them, and give credit where it's due.

[evergrey]

I'd like to add that I respect different styles. I don't like to see people get scammed in pyramid schemes, so if I hear about something like that, I will pass along what I heard, and what I have observed... with a big disclaimer if I don't have enough direct experience to say for certain.

I respect that people practice martial arts for many different reasons.

I respect that not everyone is crazy like us Kyokushin folks. And that's fine.

Self defense? Yes, we do learn some of that at my dojo. We aren't actually very knockdown tournament oriented, for a Kyokushin dojo, either, because we have a lot of law enforcement officers, and it's OWNED by a LEO, so he has integrated a lot of broader self defense stuff, with the aim of helping students and fellow officers have a better chance of staying alive out there.

Do I think we have the market cornered on self defense, or "realistic" training, or the best full contact knockdown fighting? Naw, there's many ways to do that kind of thing effectively.

Do I sneer at people who want to practice a martial art without so much risk or bruises? No.

I will certainly give my opinion about what I feel is the most effective method of training. It's just my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm looking down on everyone who doesn't train that way, or that I do not respect people who train differently.

I do kind of wonder about why you're talking about respecting the way others do things, and then spending a bunch of time shooting down the way some people do things? If that's not right for you, hey that's just fine! I'm not telling you that there is a one true way and that you HAVE to do that, or even that you have to think it's anything other than insane. But I'm wondering, what are you asking for here?

Even in my dojo, there are plenty of people who only ever go in for light contact. Mostly other women (I'm training for full contact knockdown, but most women don't tend to want to) but also some men. We respect people's boundaries. There is no bullying here.

Buuuut like I said, I was responding to someone talking about how sport karate caused people to train poorly because in tournaments they pulled their punches. I thought that by "sport karate" they meant the tournament side of karate, not a specific style, or specific style of tournament. I was simply illustrating that not all tournaments involve pulling punches.

Come on man, I'm not prejudiced! Some of my best friends are Aikidoka! So see right, I can't be! ;}

[Dobbersky]

I'd like to add that I respect different styles. ..........

Come on man, I'm not prejudiced! Some of my best friends are Aikidoka! So see right, I can't be! ;}

Aikido - one of the hardest styles out there, have you ever been an UKE for a Aikido Yudansha, you end up with more bruises than "Soft" Mick (no offence to Mick)

As most Judoka and Aikidoka will tell you "The Floor will hit you harder than any punch or Kick!!!"

OSU!!!!

That's why Aikido has such a strong influence in Ashihara because Ashihara Kancho realised how "painful" Aikido can be

OSU!!!