Kata ? Whats the point

[bushido_man96]

The use of forms is going to depend on the style/organizations outlook on forms. When I was in the ATA, the forms had no applications in the sense of bunkai, but did have some relative combinations that were applicable as they were done in the forms, for things such as sparring. For example, and back leg round kick, reverse side kick combination is a logical movement sequence for sparring in the ATA. However, the main goal of the ATA forms is that of technique development and advancement. As one progresses in the ATA, one sees the degree of difficulty in the techniques progress with each new form.

The ITF forms I've been doing for the last 7-8 years don't really lend themselves to the same kind of technique advancement as those I did with the ATA. However, there are some areas in each of the forms that have some value in the bunkai style of applications setting. This isn't a stretch, seeing as many of the ITF forms have move sets similar to those coming from forms in Shotokan Karate.

In Aikido, we don't do any kind of form/kata work. We do basic movement exercises, and then do technique work and applications. So, although Mr. Fink's article does a pretty good job on explaining the purpose of forms, I will debate the fact with him that not all MA styles incorporate forms training (Boxing, Wrestling, Aikido, BJJ, etc).

So when it really comes down to it, what you are going to get out of forms training is going to be based on why your style does forms, and how much your instructor(s) know and are able to pass on to you (as with most things you learn in the MAs). Once you've exhausted your instructor's knowledge on forms, then you can start looking in other dircetions on your own, to see what else is out there.

[Throwdown0850]

Personally, i come from a system where kata has fallen by the wayside. I believe that the reason for this is that we have decided that extensive grappling training is more combatively viable than large amounts of kata. This is not to say that kata is a negative thing, i believe that it has its place, escpecially for conditioning purposes.

However, i believe there is not substitute for moderate to hard sparring to get the feeling of having real pressure put upon you. I may fall into the category that makes me a "numpty", but when training for real life situations that are dynamic, not static, imho there is no substitute for sparring and spontaneus attack and defend with a non-compliant Uke.

You're no numpty, Groinstrike. That is exactly how i feel as well.

[MasterPain]

I would try to spread the word numpty around here, but I'm far too busy trying to re-establish the phrase Jive Turkey.

[Nidan Melbourne]

the point of doing kata is to give you a set of techniques that can help you defend yourself from an attack.

in saifa for instance you do a foot sweep, hammer fist, Kake uke & uppercut in that sequence. You can do a footsweep on conjunction with a takedown and take it to the ground. the hammerfist could be used from someone grabbing your shoulder you grab it spin around and deliver a hammer fist to their nose

[mal103]

Personally, i come from a system where kata has fallen by the wayside. I believe that the reason for this is that we have decided that extensive grappling training is more combatively viable than large amounts of kata.

Same thing! "hidden" inside later Kata are 100's of grappling, neck twisting, arm braking, leg flipping moves, you just have to learn the Kata and then learn the Kata properly, drill the drills, explore the moves, expand them.

We recently did a mixed semina of Karate and Ju Jitsu, amazing how plenty of their moves showed up in our Kata!

Karate is Kata, Kata is Karate....

Research John Burke, Patrick McCarthy, Iain Abernethy. Most application of Kata shown in the average Dojo are for kids and basics, look beyond and learn the true meaning, explore them and find what the past masters placed there as reminders of their drills. Seek what they sought!

Think of the caveman returning from the hunt and "showing" the tribe how he killed the prey, the young warriors will mimic this "show" but that won't teach them to kill, only how to go about the kill. They will still need to find out the final application themselves but they can practice for hours and show the right spirit of the hunt in their hearts as a start. Practice Kata as though on the battle field (or pub on a Saturday night).

[lowereastside]

Another touchy subject - My 3 cents - ask 100 Martial Arts Teachers about the purpose of Kata and you will get all sorts of opinions on kata. And now my opinion - The movements of kata should go way beyond the scope of fighting - sure there are fighting applications to the kata moves - however, one must really dig deep into the true meaning of kata/Forms -and having things explained does not hurt either. Today many individuals make up their own Kata/Forms - but one must have a deep understanding of the original to create the new. But then the ones doing the creating will tell you they do have an understanding of what they do. And some do. For many who do kata there is a point in doing them - for others there is no point and many have done away with kata. Even in Mainland Japan many of the offshoot styles of karate have done away with kata.

[sensei8]

Kata ? What's the point

...

To ask this question, imho, only demonstrates just how little a practitoner understands the basis of kata. If a student is asking this question because they truly want to understand kata, this is an expected question. However, if a student is asking this question because they don't believe in kata, this is an expected question because they don't want to understand the importance of kata. What's more arlarming to me is when a karateka asks this type of question.

Imho!!

[tallgeese]

the point of doing kata is to give you a set of techniques that can help you defend yourself from an attack.

in saifa for instance you do a foot sweep, hammer fist, Kake uke & uppercut in that sequence. You can do a footsweep on conjunction with a takedown and take it to the ground. the hammerfist could be used from someone grabbing your shoulder you grab it spin around and deliver a hammer fist to their nose

And what happens when these need to go in a different order? Or the attack doesn't match? Or an angle is wrong? Then the hours and hours of neurological conditioning is for naught or at the very least not as effective as it could have been.

Fights are free form. Training needs to match that need or we're not maximizing our prep time. To do this, we need to look at more modern modalities that are based on current understanding of adult learning and combat psychology.

Like I've argued before, if the goal of your training is to preserve an art form in the manner it was performed at the time of it's modern systematization, then there are very good reasons for kata, and it then has a built in purpose. If your purpose is to prepare for real world combat then, personally, I think there isn't as much "what's it for" factor.

[sensei8]

No Kata equals no karate!!

And what happens when these need to go in a different order? Or the attack doesn't match? Or an angle is wrong? Then the hours and hours of neurological conditioning is for naught or at the very least not as effective as it could have been.

These things can be adjusted at any given time instantly as needed. The things that kata trains us are vital outside of the safety of any dojo because kata gave me transitional understanding outside of the prescribed movements of any said kata. These prescribed movements are the key to the door, and once the door is opened in understanding and discovering the unforeseen Bunkai/Oyo, adjustments that you speak up become effortless.

Fights are free form. Training needs to match that need or we're not maximizing our prep time. To do this, we need to look at more modern modalities that are based on current understanding of adult learning and combat psychology.

True, however, kata is a training tool, and it's about time students understand that. One has to train outside of the kata, but then, one will also have to return to that kata training to chip away and clean the air of any uncertain elements that still might exist. Kata is modern and effective as a training tool. I don't do kata for trophies, no, I train in kata because it opens up many other possibilities. People speak ill about kata because they don't understand it as it is meant to be understood.

Like I've argued before, if the goal of your training is to preserve an art form in the manner it was performed at the time of it's modern systematization, then there are very good reasons for kata, and it then has a built in purpose. If your purpose is to prepare for real world combat then, personally, I think there isn't as much "what's it for" factor.

Again, no kata equals no karate!!

[bushido_man96]

I don't really feel the same as other do in regards to "no kata equals no Karate." I don't think that's the case, but that's just my opinion.

I look at kata and Karate as a chicken and egg argument; which came first? Has kata always been around, or were moves melded into the form of kata when training modalities changed? I think its important to look into the hows and whys of why kata came about in the first place in order to really understand why we have kata.