Sojobo, I don't disagree with your points there. But, if someone wants to stare at my foot to see if I pre-pivot, then I can use that to my advantage as well. A feinted pre-pivot would prove quite strategic in some senses.

Also, if you are in a heavy self-defense situation, I don't think its as likely to be picked up on as a telegraph. In a match fight, its different, though.

Also, the pre-pivot doesn't have to mean that the entire pivoting motion happens before the kick. On the side kick, it had in the past. But for the round kick and the front kick, it just starts the pivot motion and makes it less stressful on the knee to complete the pivot as the kick finishes.

Its not for everyone. But as one gets older from decades of kicking, and starts to feel the stress on the knees, it might be a change that can add another decade or two to the MA career.

Sojobo, I don't disagree with your points there. But, if someone wants to stare at my foot to see if I pre-pivot, then I can use that to my advantage as well. A feinted pre-pivot would prove quite strategic in some senses.

Also, if you are in a heavy self-defense situation, I don't think its as likely to be picked up on as a telegraph. In a match fight, its different, though.

Also, the pre-pivot doesn't have to mean that the entire pivoting motion happens before the kick. On the side kick, it had in the past. But for the round kick and the front kick, it just starts the pivot motion and makes it less stressful on the knee to complete the pivot as the kick finishes.

Its not for everyone. But as one gets older from decades of kicking, and starts to feel the stress on the knees, it might be a change that can add

another decade or two to the MA career.

I don't disagree with you, it is important to keep ourselves healthy.

Re turning the foot before - I would not need to stare at someone's foot to see the shape of their intention if they did it - but you are right, there are ways to disguise it - that's budo.

I guess my point is that you should learn it right first, and then for longevity of training adjustments can be made.

Sojobo

I'm no beginner, and I've been doing a pre-pivot ever since 1981; that's 30 years and it's served me more for the good than for the bad. I don't concern myself with telegraphing...because I just don't. That pre-pivot, the way I've been doing it doesn't add another technique.

I've learned the proper way to kick along time ago, but because of my injury, I had to relearn how to kick/support with the guidance of my Dai-Soke, and imho, he's worthy of my listening to him.

If you had been with Brian and I those days, you would've seen it first hand and you would've understood the way I pre-pivot more.

I guess my point is that you should learn it right first, and then for longevity of training adjustments can be made.

Sojobo

I think we are going to the same place here, but just arriving from different directions.

I agree the technique should be taught right first. However, the pre-pivot doesn't make it wrong; its just a variation. So what I do is evaluate how each person I teach the kick is performing the kick. If they do it with well by pivoting without issues, then I let them go. If I see someone having problems with kicking, especially that pivot, and I fear for injury, then I'll let them in on the pre-pivot idea. It can be done on a case-by-case basis, according to the abilities and needs of each student.

If you had been with Brian and I those days, you would've seen it first hand and you would've understood the way I pre-pivot more.

It was a good experience to tinker with. At first, Bob didn't care for the idea much. Then, he wanted me to look at his round kick, and as he began to chamber up for his kick, he did a pre-pivot. I said, "there it is, you've been doing and haven't realized it." It was a fun moment, and we both tinkered with the concept a little bit.

Nice to remember those 2 days...I miss them quite a lot!!

Nice to remember those 2 days...I miss them quite a lot!!

So do I, Bob. I am actually hoping to get back to training regularly at the end of this month, when things slow down a bit. Then, maybe we can look at getting something done about another get together.

Well, if anyone finds themself headed through New Orleans, let me know. I may not have my own studio, but I have a paved yard and know where to find a couple of halfway-decent clear spots. Also I know where to find some of the nummy food of New Orleans and some of the non-spendy sights that aren't in the touristy and drunken party central French Quarter. (Not the crawfish, alas, my wife is allergic. But that's easy enough to find.)

That would be a great time!