"You've Failed!!"

[Canadian77]

Our dojo has been operating continuously for 33 years. We have never conducted formal testing. Our students are observed every moment they are in the dojo. They are promoted when a consensus of black belts recommend them. The appropriate belt is awarded at no cost. Most schools, that have formal testing, do so to charge for the service and charge for the promotion. In our dojo rank is awarded, because it is earned, at no cost to the student.

Our dojo does something similar, although we still have grading. We pay a flat fee and no extra costs for anything, including belts, exams, etc. For coloured belt grading we are observed always, our attendance is also taken into and stripes are given monthly if the director feels we have earned. When we have earned six stripes we are ready for grading, so if we are invited to grading then we likely will not fail, since we have been observed throughout and earned the stripes. Our classes are not huge, so this is doable. I know that black belt grading is different, and not done at the dojo, but I don't know much about it. (I'm a beginner, not an instructor, but hopefully posting here is ok as long as it is relevant - - let me know if only instructors are to post here and I won't again.)

[Spartacus Maximus]

I spent most of my time in karate going through formal type testing for each kyu rank. We knew when the tests were going to be and who was going to be tested. There was even time to prepare but when I think about it I don't remember anyone ever failing.

In my actual dojo tests do happen but they are not at a fixed time. Sensei just usually gives somebody compliments on the improvements he sees. Those are usually clues that mean the candidate is ready to be recognized as a new rank.

Finally on any regular day he will tell that person that he or she will be formally evaluated for their new rank during the next general evaluation, seminar or dojo event. Formal evaluation is based on basics and fundamentals as well as understanding and performance of kata with oyo kumite. Also included is breaking exercises. After the evaluation we continue regular training and at the end new belts and certificates are handed. Lastly comes the beer and or sake. Whatever's is in the fridge.

[Nidan Melbourne]

I spent most of my time in karate going through formal type testing for each kyu rank. We knew when the tests were going to be and who was going to be tested. There was even time to prepare but when I think about it I don't remember anyone ever failing.

In my actual dojo tests do happen but they are not at a fixed time. Sensei just usually gives somebody compliments on the improvements he sees. Those are usually clues that mean the candidate is ready to be recognized as a new rank.

Finally on any regular day he will tell that person that he or she will be formally evaluated for their new rank during the next general evaluation, seminar or dojo event. Formal evaluation is based on basics and fundamentals as well as understanding and performance of kata with oyo kumite. Also included is breaking exercises. After the evaluation we continue regular training and at the end new belts and certificates are handed. Lastly comes the beer and or sake. Whatever's is in the fridge.

Thats good way of doing it.

How far in between general evaluations/seminars/general events? what are your requirements?

We do gradings usually every month or month and a half. Plus run for 2 hours, and always runs overtime (the centre where we train doesn't love it).

[Nidan Melbourne]

We test every 3 to 4 months depending on the progress of the class as a whole. If we feel that too many haven't improved enough to test in 3 months, we'll go a 4th month. This is usually enough time to work out kinks in students' progress as a class to test.

Individually, we closely observe a student's progress. Regardless of testing time (whether 3 or 4 months), if we deem the student's progress is lacking, we'll inform the student s/he is not ready for the test. We don't mince words, but we're respectful and professional about it. However, we still tell the student that it's his/her choice to take the test. If they take the test anyway and fail, it's on them. Most of the students in the past that went against our advice to not test ended up failing; however, we've had a few surprise us...

Regardless of whether we deem a student is ready for a test or not, if a student fails a test, s/he fails. In event of a test failure, we'll inform them in private why they failed and what they can do to improve and pass the next time.

There's a very small company of us that have graded through the ranks together, however, because a test is just that...a test, some of us would fail and some of us would pass. Therefore, Greg and I are separated by 6 months in total years; I started 6 months before he did. Greg and I are separated by 1 year in testing cycles; I passed my Hachidan 1 year before Greg because Greg failed but I finally passed mine.

None of our small company never took it personal ONCE we matured as adults and then as MAists. Why? It's just a test and the test will always take care of itself one way or another.

We've asked our Dai-Soke why we failed and his usual response was....

"You don't know? You should know because you were there and I saw the same things that you saw." Well, that bit of philosophy didn't sit well with me at first because I was still "childish" in both as an adult and as a MAist. Sure, if I truly didn't know why, he'd explain it to me, albeit, quite short.

You fail... train harder...you fail again...train even harder...you fail again...you get the picture. The bottom line with any testing is that you...

DON'T QUIT!!

Great post

I wish I could say I went all the way through my kyu grades with similar-aged peers. That must be a great experience. See, three of my fellow students were ahead of me when I started with my current instructor 15+ years ago... One was a Shodan (we'll call "A"), one a 1st kyu ("B"), and one a 3rd kyu ("C"). Well, eventually I caught up to them.

When I made it to 3rd kyu, "B" got his Shodan, "C" had only advanced to 2nd kyu, and "A" quit all together. By the time I earned Shodan, "B" was still a Shodan and "C" earned Shodan with me. So, to me at least, it was cool that "B", "C", and I were all Shodans together... Alas, it didn't seem to sit well with the other two, and they became lax... I eventually passed them up, and they quit, too...

It's like your 2nd to last and last passages in your post...you fail, try harder, fail, try again...DON'T QUIT...PASS... I liken these issues to ego, pride, and "know-it-all-ness". As a matter of fact, I just had to address this issue with one of my 16-year-old students.

One of the analogies I use with this issue can be found in the movie Forbidden Kingdom, where Jackie Chan's character Lu Yan is talking to Michael Angarano's character Jason. They're sitting around a campfire the night before Jason's training is to begin, eating dinner and drinking, and Jason asks Lu Yan about all these "techniques" that he may be shown: "Buddha Palm", etc...

Lu Yan leans to fill Jason's cup with water, overfills it, and continues to pour water into the cup. All the while, Jason is saying, "my cup is full, please stop... hey my cup's full..."

"Yes, your cup is full," Lu Yan responds. "How can I teach you anything if your cup is already full? Empty your cup..."

My student seemed to understand this analogy well, so we'll see if it takes hold in the near future. As for my fellow classmates that quit, I only pray they would realize this...

As for myself, I find that about every 3 - 5 years in my journey I realize I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING, and empty my cup again...

why do you do it as a class as a whole?

It is interesting how people quit when someone who started after them pass them.

I am training with a few people that i taught when they first started. And they are now dan graded students. Which i'm cool with because they are great partners to train wth

[Archimoto]

I spent most of my time in karate going through formal type testing for each kyu rank. We knew when the tests were going to be and who was going to be tested. There was even time to prepare but when I think about it I don't remember anyone ever failing.

In my actual dojo tests do happen but they are not at a fixed time. Sensei just usually gives somebody compliments on the improvements he sees. Those are usually clues that mean the candidate is ready to be recognized as a new rank.

Finally on any regular day he will tell that person that he or she will be formally evaluated for their new rank during the next general evaluation, seminar or dojo event. Formal evaluation is based on basics and fundamentals as well as understanding and performance of kata with oyo kumite. Also included is breaking exercises. After the evaluation we continue regular training and at the end new belts and certificates are handed. Lastly comes the beer and or sake. Whatever's is in the fridge.

I like this approach.

[Nidan Melbourne]

Our dojo has been operating continuously for 33 years. We have never conducted formal testing. Our students are observed every moment they are in the dojo. They are promoted when a consensus of black belts recommend them. The appropriate belt is awarded at no cost. Most schools, that have formal testing, do so to charge for the service and charge for the promotion. In our dojo rank is awarded, because it is earned, at no cost to the student.

Our dojo does something similar, although we still have grading. We pay a flat fee and no extra costs for anything, including belts, exams, etc. For coloured belt grading we are observed always, our attendance is also taken into and stripes are given monthly if the director feels we have earned. When we have earned six stripes we are ready for grading, so if we are invited to grading then we likely will not fail, since we have been observed throughout and earned the stripes. Our classes are not huge, so this is doable. I know that black belt grading is different, and not done at the dojo, but I don't know much about it. (I'm a beginner, not an instructor, but hopefully posting here is ok as long as it is relevant - - let me know if only instructors are to post here and I won't again.)

Wouldn't your belts, exams etc be included into your flat fees?

[CredoTe]

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Quote redacted by CredoTe to save post space...

why do you do it as a class as a whole?

It is interesting how people quit when someone who started after them pass them.

I am training with a few people that i taught when they first started. And they are now dan graded students. Which i'm cool with because they are great partners to train wth

Our testing cycles must be inclusive of all our students; meaning, the opportunity to test cycles every 3 - 4 months for all of our students. As instructors, part of our duty is to monitor the progress of each student individually to ascertain each student's eligibility to test. If, by the 3-month mark, we feel that a majority of the students aren't quite ready to test, we push the opportunity to test back another month.

What's that one month of time really worth? Most of the time, when a student (and by extension that student's technique) isn't ready, it's because s/he isn't quite confident in her/his own ability. That one month gives us time to convince each student that their techniques are good enough to test.

Less often, a student's performance/understanding of a technique or techniques haven't quite progressed enough to test. That one month of time gives us a chance to either a) work with the student enough to the point that s/he understands the trouble technique(s), or b) come up with a contingency plan in coordination with the student so that the student can work the plan hard enough to gain enough progression by test time.

Least often, when a) or b) above fails, we tell the student that it's in her/his best interest not to test. If the student has enough mat time (attendance) in the test cycle to test, s/he has the option to. If the student does not have enough mat time, then the student does not get to test, period. We have open mat times on our schedule for students to make up absences. If a) or b) above fails, it's always because the individual student did not put forth the effort to improve (practice). Any lack of instruction or guidance for the students is accountable to us, hence we never hold it against the students.*

Yeah, getting leap-frogged is difficult for most people to accept. One of the things I tell my students about rank is that, if you were to really think about the time needed to make it to the upper Dan ranks (beyond Godan), we're all going to end up the same rank (Godan).

* Any lack of instruction or guidance on our part is naturally caused by the fact that we all have normal jobs/careers and families, and that incidental lack from time to time is not intentional...

[jaypo]

I haven't seen anyone in our club flat out fail. But I have seen a few reach a lower rank than they were shooting for.

In our club, we have yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, red, brown, and black belts. We also have advanced yellow, advanced orange, etc. The "advanced" tag is given to those students that have progressed past basic knowledge of that certain belt, but have not been given enough instruction to get to the next color. The only problem has occurred when one student achieved green belt while the 2 students that she started training with achieved advanced green belts. They progressed a lot faster and retained what they've been taught a lot better than that student, but she felt entitled to the same rank as her peers.

As most of you have mentioned, all students have pretty much been "pretested" before the formal test. They are invited to test only when we feel they are ready. Therefore, we see their knowledge on a daily basis, so if they mess up in the test, most of the time it's just nervousness.

[Nidan Melbourne]

I haven't seen anyone in our club flat out fail. But I have seen a few reach a lower rank than they were shooting for.

In our club, we have yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, red, brown, and black belts. We also have advanced yellow, advanced orange, etc. The "advanced" tag is given to those students that have progressed past basic knowledge of that certain belt, but have not been given enough instruction to get to the next color. The only problem has occurred when one student achieved green belt while the 2 students that she started training with achieved advanced green belts. They progressed a lot faster and retained what they've been taught a lot better than that student, but she felt entitled to the same rank as her peers.

As most of you have mentioned, all students have pretty much been "pretested" before the formal test. They are invited to test only when we feel they are ready. Therefore, we see their knowledge on a daily basis, so if they mess up in the test, most of the time it's just nervousness.

Can you please elaborate more on how you can attained the 'Advanced' Tag.

Example (we will use my schools belt & testing system): We have 5 tags per belt prior to being eligible to grade

A student grading from Purple to Blue Belt (we have purple prior to blue), and pass + receive the first tag out of five on their blue belt which is considered 'advanced' blue, in which they only have to get the next 4 tags to be eligible.

Is that kind of what you mean?

[jaypo]

It's kind of the same principal, but without the tags. Our M.I., for lack of a better term, will mentally "tag" the students. He'll observe them in training (and a lot of our students take private classes in addition to the full classes, so he is able to determine their skill level a little easier).

I guess it's similar in principal but without officially giving them the tags.