"You've Failed!!"

[pdbnb]

For kyu grades I never fail students. If they are not ready they don't attempt the grading. Telling them they are not ready is the challenge but that can be phrased far more constructively than letting them grade and failing them. While martial arts may not be "the proving ground for political correctness" it is also not neccessary to shatter somebody's self esteem.

For Dan grades the same applies however their is a higher onus on self responsibility in preparation. Occasionally someone will fail a component and we will usually give them the time and support they need to resit that particular component when they are ready.

Not an instructor, but thought I'd share a situation from a student's POV. When I was 14 and doing Shorinji Kempo, a group of us had joined up at the same time and were all blue belts. Then everyone got proposed to brown belt apart from me. This got me so discouraged that I eventually quit (there were other reasons behind that, too, though). I know it was my fault for being weak-minded (and 14), but the school lost a student because of me not being allowed to grade. Just thought I'd share...not even sure why, lol.

[kensei]

A very good friend of mine just marched off out of Karate because he felt he was not being allowed to test often enough...the thing is he was sporatic in his training and quits everything....so I dont feel so bad.

I would rather have someone training hard fail a test than not be allowed to grade, but if you dont come down and train hard continuously then why would you think you should be allowed to test?

[bushido_man96]

For kyu grades I never fail students. If they are not ready they don't attempt the grading. Telling them they are not ready is the challenge but that can be phrased far more constructively than letting them grade and failing them. While martial arts may not be "the proving ground for political correctness" it is also not neccessary to shatter somebody's self esteem.

For Dan grades the same applies however their is a higher onus on self responsibility in preparation. Occasionally someone will fail a component and we will usually give them the time and support they need to resit that particular component when they are ready.

Not an instructor, but thought I'd share a situation from a student's POV. When I was 14 and doing Shorinji Kempo, a group of us had joined up at the same time and were all blue belts. Then everyone got proposed to brown belt apart from me. This got me so discouraged that I eventually quit (there were other reasons behind that, too, though). I know it was my fault for being weak-minded (and 14), but the school lost a student because of me not being allowed to grade. Just thought I'd share...not even sure why, lol.

And that's why its called a test.

[sensei8]

There's a very small company of us that have graded through the ranks together, however, because a test is just that...a test, some of us would fail and some of us would pass. Therefore, Greg and I are separated by 6 months in total years; I started 6 months before he did. Greg and I are separated by 1 year in testing cycles; I passed my Hachidan 1 year before Greg because Greg failed but I finally passed mine.

None of our small company never took it personal ONCE we matured as adults and then as MAists. Why? It's just a test and the test will always take care of itself one way or another.

We've asked our Dai-Soke why we failed and his usual response was....

"You don't know? You should know because you were there and I saw the same things that you saw." Well, that bit of philosophy didn't sit well with me at first because I was still "childish" in both as an adult and as a MAist. Sure, if I truly didn't know why, he'd explain it to me, albeit, quite short.

You fail... train harder...you fail again...train even harder...you fail again...you get the picture. The bottom line with any testing is that you...

DON'T QUIT!!

[bushido_man96]

Exactly, Bob. So many view a failure as the either such an insult to themselves or a bruise on their ego that it can't be overcome. But that is what it is for, to be overcome. Its simply another training obstacle.

[ps1]

I think it's good to fail someone as part of a larger test. Especially if they're testing for instructor ranking. I don't want anyone representing me/my school/or my art if they don't have the strength of character and will to overcome small adversities like failing a test.

[CredoTe]

We test every 3 to 4 months depending on the progress of the class as a whole. If we feel that too many haven't improved enough to test in 3 months, we'll go a 4th month. This is usually enough time to work out kinks in students' progress as a class to test.

Individually, we closely observe a student's progress. Regardless of testing time (whether 3 or 4 months), if we deem the student's progress is lacking, we'll inform the student s/he is not ready for the test. We don't mince words, but we're respectful and professional about it. However, we still tell the student that it's his/her choice to take the test. If they take the test anyway and fail, it's on them. Most of the students in the past that went against our advice to not test ended up failing; however, we've had a few surprise us...

Regardless of whether we deem a student is ready for a test or not, if a student fails a test, s/he fails. In event of a test failure, we'll inform them in private why they failed and what they can do to improve and pass the next time.

There's a very small company of us that have graded through the ranks together, however, because a test is just that...a test, some of us would fail and some of us would pass. Therefore, Greg and I are separated by 6 months in total years; I started 6 months before he did. Greg and I are separated by 1 year in testing cycles; I passed my Hachidan 1 year before Greg because Greg failed but I finally passed mine.

None of our small company never took it personal ONCE we matured as adults and then as MAists. Why? It's just a test and the test will always take care of itself one way or another.

We've asked our Dai-Soke why we failed and his usual response was....

"You don't know? You should know because you were there and I saw the same things that you saw." Well, that bit of philosophy didn't sit well with me at first because I was still "childish" in both as an adult and as a MAist. Sure, if I truly didn't know why, he'd explain it to me, albeit, quite short.

You fail... train harder...you fail again...train even harder...you fail again...you get the picture. The bottom line with any testing is that you...

DON'T QUIT!!

Great post

I wish I could say I went all the way through my kyu grades with similar-aged peers. That must be a great experience. See, three of my fellow students were ahead of me when I started with my current instructor 15+ years ago... One was a Shodan (we'll call "A"), one a 1st kyu ("B"), and one a 3rd kyu ("C"). Well, eventually I caught up to them.

When I made it to 3rd kyu, "B" got his Shodan, "C" had only advanced to 2nd kyu, and "A" quit all together. By the time I earned Shodan, "B" was still a Shodan and "C" earned Shodan with me. So, to me at least, it was cool that "B", "C", and I were all Shodans together... Alas, it didn't seem to sit well with the other two, and they became lax... I eventually passed them up, and they quit, too...

It's like your 2nd to last and last passages in your post...you fail, try harder, fail, try again...DON'T QUIT...PASS... I liken these issues to ego, pride, and "know-it-all-ness". As a matter of fact, I just had to address this issue with one of my 16-year-old students.

One of the analogies I use with this issue can be found in the movie Forbidden Kingdom, where Jackie Chan's character Lu Yan is talking to Michael Angarano's character Jason. They're sitting around a campfire the night before Jason's training is to begin, eating dinner and drinking, and Jason asks Lu Yan about all these "techniques" that he may be shown: "Buddha Palm", etc...

Lu Yan leans to fill Jason's cup with water, overfills it, and continues to pour water into the cup. All the while, Jason is saying, "my cup is full, please stop... hey my cup's full..."

"Yes, your cup is full," Lu Yan responds. "How can I teach you anything if your cup is already full? Empty your cup..."

My student seemed to understand this analogy well, so we'll see if it takes hold in the near future. As for my fellow classmates that quit, I only pray they would realize this...

As for myself, I find that about every 3 - 5 years in my journey I realize I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING, and empty my cup again...

[Nidan Melbourne]

I use a tiered grading system where students must earn stripes in order to be eligible to grade. If they fail stripe testing I speak with them on the spot and discuss the areas they need to improve in-stripe testing is done individually so that I can give them one-on-one attention and feedback. Students that earn all stripes and are eligible to grade rarely fail final testing but on the rare occasion they do I speak with the student privately or with a parent (minor) and begin by asking them how they thought their grading went-most serious students will know the outcome before you even tell them. After a discussion on their strong points and areas that need improvement we formulate a plan together to get them to the next grading.

That's what we do at our dojo - where you have to earn 5 tags before you can grade.

When they fail a tag test they get told why they failed and how to improved. But if they fail a grading they get told privately with their parents in attendance. We tell them with their parents present for legal reasons obviously but also so the parents can understand why their child isn't progressing to the next belt. We also enlist the parents to help the child improve and to practice when they are at home

[inventor]

Our dojo has been operating continuously for 33 years. We have never conducted formal testing. Our students are observed every moment they are in the dojo. They are promoted when a consensus of black belts recommend them. The appropriate belt is awarded at no cost. Most schools, that have formal testing, do so to charge for the service and charge for the promotion. In our dojo rank is awarded, because it is earned, at no cost to the student.

[Nidan Melbourne]

Our dojo has been operating continuously for 33 years. We have never conducted formal testing. Our students are observed every moment they are in the dojo. They are promoted when a consensus of black belts recommend them. The appropriate belt is awarded at no cost. Most schools, that have formal testing, do so to charge for the service and charge for the promotion. In our dojo rank is awarded, because it is earned, at no cost to the student.

thats an interesting way of running things, and it definitely would make the students work hard to earn their next belt not just rock up every couple of months to grade for it.

We do grade formally but all the costs of belts & gradings are actually kept to a bare minimum for them, as they are included in the training fees. So the one thing that my sensei would actually lose money from is the belts.