"Teaching through the body."

[bushido_man96]

Another excerpt from Harry Cook's Shotokan Karate, A Precise History. This quote is from Takayuki Mikami, who is not anyone I am really familiar with, but I'm sure some of our Karate brethern here are. The quote has to do with the way training was for him at Hosei University:

Old training was very samurai-like. There was much stern discipline. Classes consisted of repetitions of basic techniques. Drill, drill, drill. The teachers explained nothing. They made you do a technique 100 times. If you didn't get it right, or you didn't understand the technique, you did it 100 more times. Nothing explained. The instructors insisted insisted that you had to find out for yourself. In Japan this is called 'teaching through the body.'

The bold is the part that stood out to me for this thread. What is your opinion on this type of training, or way of being taught? I can understand the repitition, but as for nothing being explained, I kind of waver a bit there. How would you feel about training this way?

[tallgeese]

I think this is, again, a look at how a certain body of knowledge has changed over the course of the years. In this case, education not the martial arts.

I'm certain this is the way it was done. Since then, educational studies have shown that a studen of anything, not just martail arts, will learn better if he/she understands the "why" of a skill.

I think we do a disservice to students if we don't change with the times to update the way we do things based on new methods that are far more advanced than old ways.

I do like the repetition aspect of this. I think that often times, this is lost on the modern student. The need to rep a tactic into instinct. It's hard to make the current younger generation of students understand this. So, on that front, old wisdom prevails.

The trick is balancing the two.

[DWx]

Doing it this way is great if the student can work out the hows and whys quickly, if not all they are doing is committing wrong movements to muscle memory. What's the point in doing 100 wrong movements? You're not committing anything useful to memory, just 100 ways how not to do it. Much better IMO to be shown the how, you do it correctly 100 times, then discover the why for yourself but with input from the teacher. TBH by doing it wrong 100 times you're making it harder to learn the right way. Its easy to correct a white belt, correcting a blackbelt for the same mistake is much harder because they've practiced it wrong too many times.

The teacher at my university TKD club seems to be fond of this method.. In fact its one of the reasons I stopped training there. I just don't get how you can say to someone "do a side kick" without any explanation of how or what a side kick is. I think it reflects in the quality of his students and how quickly they learn said sidekick. Comparing his method to my instructor's method (he breaks everything down and teaching from first principles), the quality at my instructor's school is much higher and there is a better understanding of the techniques across the board.

[bushido_man96]

I'm certain this is the way it was done. Since then, educational studies have shown that a studen of anything, not just martail arts, will learn better if he/she understands the "why" of a skill.

I think we do a disservice to students if we don't change with the times to update the way we do things based on new methods that are far more advanced than old ways.

I agree. Knowing why helps to see the reasoning behind the methods. If all an instructor can do is say something is wrong, and do it again, without any kind of elaboration, then they aren't being an instructor.

I do like the repetition aspect of this. I think that often times, this is lost on the modern student. The need to rep a tactic into instinct. It's hard to make the current younger generation of students understand this. So, on that front, old wisdom prevails.

Agreed again. I have no issue with the repititions. But they need to be good reps.

Doing it this way is great if the student can work out the hows and whys quickly, if not all they are doing is committing wrong movements to muscle memory.

Exactly, and not every student can pick things up like that. And great students can come out of both molds, and become great teachers. But not if they aren't taught in the first place.

The teacher at my university TKD club seems to be fond of this method.. In fact its one of the reasons I stopped training there. I just don't get how you can say to someone "do a side kick" without any explanation of how or what a side kick is. I think it reflects in the quality of his students and how quickly they learn said sidekick. Comparing his method to my instructor's method (he breaks everything down and teaching from first principles), the quality at my instructor's school is much higher and there is a better understanding of the techniques across the board.

And that is what will end up happening. Instructors like these won't have many good students unless they get the really talented ones, or those who can dig into those concepts themselves and make the most out of them.

Edited October 13, 2011 by bushido_man96

[Shizentai]

Sorry to bring back a slightly old thread, but I just realized that you are speaking about my sensei in that quote, so I really wanted to comment too!

Another excerpt from Harry Cook's Shotokan Karate, A Precise History. This quote is from Takayuki Mikami, who is not anyone I am really familiar with, but I'm sure some of our Karate brethern here are.

Mikami sensei was the captain of the Hosei Karate club in 1955. He was also the first instructor training graduate from JKA in 1957. Upon graduation he was promptly sent out by Nakayama to other countries in order "to spread karate worldwide." By 1963 Mikami sensei had a few all-japan titles and had also made his way to the southern United States. Nowadays he teaches at his headquarters in New Orleans as the head of the JKA American Federation, and was awarded 9th dan from JKA headquarters last week (everyone in my dojo is brimming with excitement for him!!! Especially considering that his 8th dan was older than I am).

Old training was very samurai-like. There was much stern discipline. Classes consisted of repetitions of basic techniques. Drill, drill, drill. The teachers explained nothing. They made you do a technique 100 times. If you didn't get it right, or you didn't understand the technique, you did it 100 more times. Nothing explained. The instructors insisted insisted that you had to find out for yourself. In Japan this is called 'teaching through the body.'

What is your opinion on this type of training, or way of being taught? I can understand the repitition, but as for nothing being explained, I kind of waver a bit there. How would you feel about training this way?

Sensei does often talk about his college days and that manner of training still today. However, I don't think that he intended to advocate using this type of training exclusively. To tell you the truth, I can't remember the last time Sensei had a class where he didn't elaborate on the purpose of techniques. He often spends a good deal of time explaining things as he sees them to help our understanding.

However, there are times when the mind may understand something, but the body is still confused. 'Teaching through the body' is perfect for conquering this problem in my personal opinion. Some years ago I found myself preparing for my shodan exam. At this time I was struggling with a particular technique of a particular kata. Although people had shown me the application of the move, shown me the timing, shown me the speed... it still didn't work when I tried it somehow. My body was moving in my mind the same way as other people's and yet something was still, well, off.

Sensei told me to go home, pick up ten-pound weights and do the technique over and over again by myself for at least an hour each day. "Then," he said, "you will start to understand."

I did as I was told, but for the first few weeks, I couldn't do the technique for more than five or ten minutes without tiring out, but as I stubbornly pushed my body just past its limits again and again I began to develop more strength in the muscles that I used to do the technique.

A month or two later, I could make it up to about half an hour before tiring out, but an hour still seemed impossible to me. Then I began to study my own minute wasted movements and eliminate them one by one. This simultaneously saved my energy and increased my speed. Then I was able to last about 40 minutes.

Another month later, I realized that if I relaxed in between movements and put an explosive amount of force into just the instant in which I was executing my technique, I was able to apply my energy more efficiently. Then, as I began to touch the edge of understanding 'kime', only then was I able to last one hour each day. I passed my test, which didn't end up including that kata at all, hahaha, but by then I'm pretty sure I learned something that surpassed the usefulness of just one technique of one kata.

This is just one example though. I can think of many cases when an explanation works best as well.

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for sharing this experience with us, Shizentai. Very cool.