Weightlifters?

[Kuma]

Good post isshinryu5toforever.

As an interesting addition, many athletic trainers are actually in the school of thought that too many people start training in plyometric movements before their muscles and joints are ready to handle them. One group recommends you have at least a back squat of double bodyweight at the minimum before beginning plyometric exercise. The stronger a muscle is, the more potential for explosiveness there is as well. That's why you'll see sprinters doing their weight training.

To avoid it slowing you down in the dojo, stick to doing it on days you're not in the dojo or save it until after the dojo.

[isshinryu5toforever]

The part about plyometrics is very interesting. If you have an article about it, I'd like to read it. I could see how not having an appropriate strength training background would make plyometrics hard on your body.

[todome]

...To avoid it slowing you down in the dojo, stick to doing it on days you're not in the dojo or save it until after the dojo.

IMO yes and no. Unless you've got the constitution of an athletic 18 year old a good session in the weightroom SHOULD drag on you for days. If it doesn't you're not working hard enough.

Not that in the grand scheme of things this is necessarily a bad thing nor is crosstraining to be avoided at all times, just that if you're hitting the weight room keep its effect on performance on the dojo floor in mind. A good warm-up becomes a must and will buy you some time but there's no getting away from the fact that if you toasted your core doing deadlifts yesterday (which was the point of doing them in the first place) your oi-zuki isn't going to have the same pop to it today as if you didn't. Absolutely it can and will pay off later on down the road, particularly if you concentrate on improving muscle timing instead of just forcing those tired muscles through the same old same old. Just not today.

[wildman1717]

It depends on your martial arts goals. If you want to get good at martial arts do martial arts. Weightlifting is a supplement, and should be treated like so. I believe in weight training and use it myself. Mostly for injury prevention, also I like being the strongest in my weight class. I feel a good big man is always going to beat a good little man. I make my lifting as brief and intense as I can because that is time I could be at the dojo.

[Kuma]

The part about plyometrics is very interesting. If you have an article about it, I'd like to read it. I could see how not having an appropriate strength training background would make plyometrics hard on your body.

That's actually from a position paper from the NSCA circa 1993 or so. Here's the actual source:

Wathen, D. NSCA Position Paper: Explosive/plyometric exercises. NSCA Journal 15(3):16-19. 1993.

They recommend a back squat from 1.5-2x BW and a bench press of approximately BW before beginning most plyometric exercises.

A lot of people "jump into" plyometrics without researching firsthand (sorry for the bad joke, but I had to do it) which can be dangerous for them. One of the main dangers touted by most plyometric resources is starting them before developing an adequate strength training base.

[Kuma]

IMO yes and no. Unless you've got the constitution of an athletic 18 year old a good session in the weightroom SHOULD drag on you for days. If it doesn't you're not working hard enough.

That's why I recommended doing it either on non-dojo days or after a dojo session, not immediately before or during the day prior to. I don't disagree with you on that at all.

[isshinryu5toforever]

Thanks for the citation. Should be an interesting read.

[sperki]

I'm going to second tallgeese here. Multi-joint exercises are the way to go. I like to do a day of explosive exercises once per week; things like hang-cleans, push-press, and push-ups with a clap. Cross-fit has some great exercises. As already mentioned, make sure your form is sound or you could be setting yourself up for injury.

[hx35543]

I have been a weightlifter/bodybuilder for more than twenty years. And yes, a good solid base and correct form are everything. Without good form you can increase your risk of injury tremendously and you won't make the gains you were expecting at all. Lifting has made me stronger and faster than a lot of the younger students in the class. Due to age and wear and tear on my body I can't lift like I used to though I still lift what I can when I can.

One thing you can't forget about is flexibility. Even bodybuilders have to maintain their flexibility in order to be able to work the muscle through the full range of motion. As far as MA is concerned, trying to build strength without maintaining your flexibility will most definitely slow you down.

And if your trying to train hard to build, either take it easy on your class days or use your class as cardio day. Your body needs rest and if you push it too hard it will push back and you will get no where with your training. Try working legs one day and right after go to your local football stadium and run up and down the bleachers. You will be tired in no time.

I'll give you a good reason that goes along with MA just with front and side splits alone.I just recently injured my hip joint trying to get deeper into a side split. I forgot the basics. Muscle tissue is less dense than tendons and ligaments. So muscles will always get stronger quicker. My inner thigh muscles were getting stronger, over a period of time, enabling me to sink deeper into the split. But I forgot that, in that out stretched position, my tendons might not be strong enough to withstand that kind of strain. Needless to say, they weren't and I got hurt. So, to me, some form of strengthening is absolutely necessary. Strength goes hand in hand with MA as does flexibility.

[Ueshirokarate]

IMO yes and no. Unless you've got the constitution of an athletic 18 year old a good session in the weightroom SHOULD drag on you for days. If it doesn't you're not working hard enough.

Not that in the grand scheme of things this is necessarily a bad thing nor is crosstraining to be avoided at all times, just that if you're hitting the weight room keep its effect on performance on the dojo floor in mind. A good warm-up becomes a must and will buy you some time but there's no getting away from the fact that if you toasted your core doing deadlifts yesterday (which was the point of doing them in the first place) your oi-zuki isn't going to have the same pop to it today as if you didn't. Absolutely it can and will pay off later on down the road, particularly if you concentrate on improving muscle timing instead of just forcing those tired muscles through the same old same old. Just not today.

^^^^^This

I have been a weightlifter/bodybuilder for more than twenty years. And yes, a good solid base and correct form are everything. Without good form you can increase your risk of injury tremendously and you won't make the gains you were expecting at all. Lifting has made me stronger and faster than a lot of the younger students in the class. Due to age and wear and tear on my body I can't lift like I used to though I still lift what I can when I can.

One thing you can't forget about is flexibility. Even bodybuilders have to maintain their flexibility in order to be able to work the muscle through the full range of motion. As far as MA is concerned, trying to build strength without maintaining your flexibility will most definitely slow you down.

And if your trying to train hard to build, either take it easy on your class days or use your class as cardio day. Your body needs rest and if you push it too hard it will push back and you will get no where with your training. Try working legs one day and right after go to your local football stadium and run up and down the bleachers. You will be tired in no time.

I'll give you a good reason that goes along with MA just with front and side splits alone.I just recently injured my hip joint trying to get deeper into a side split. I forgot the basics. Muscle tissue is less dense than tendons and ligaments. So muscles will always get stronger quicker. My inner thigh muscles were getting stronger, over a period of time, enabling me to sink deeper into the split. But I forgot that, in that out stretched position, my tendons might not be strong enough to withstand that kind of strain. Needless to say, they weren't and I got hurt. So, to me, some form of strengthening is absolutely necessary. Strength goes hand in hand with MA as does flexibility.

^^^^And this

I have been studying martial arts on and off for almost twenty years. I have also been weight training on and off for twenty five. I have found that for martial arts, or for any athletic pursuit high reps and lighter weights is not all that effective. I now train heavy weights. Weight that I would be training to failure if I go above six reps.

My routine is centered around the big lifts (squats, deadlifts and the bench press.) I have also found that the first two of these are very beneficial to the ability to get low in stances. Deadlifts are also a great way to gain more grip strength.

Contrary to the belief that lifting slows you down, I have found my speed has been greatly enhanced by lifting. While I have lost a little flexibility, it is minor and more due to my muscle size getting in the way of my range of motion. The overall benefits I have gotten from lifting far outweigh this. I can't speak too highly of going heavy and using the big classic lifts to enhance your martial arts. I also believe if you are doing high reps on machines, you are really short changing yourself.

For the record, I always make sure I do forms and stretch. It is very important to keep up your martial arts training while pursuing weight training.