Good Technique does not equal Good Application

[Throwdown0850]

Well, let's take something basic like a foot sweep.

Proper form has to be taught outside of sparring, because that's all about structure. It's a matter of alignment and momentum and such.

If you just start throwing it randomly in the circle, you'll decide pretty quickly that it's useless, but it's really quite useful.

How to recognize the window of when to use it - how to apply it - takes some demonstration and paired playing around with. The openings for the technique have to be explicitly laid out and taught; what an opportunity to use the sweep looks like, where the person being swept will go to, these are things that really involve giving each other openings noncompetitively and being swept in paired exercises where you can mutually explore how the technique works and examine the dynamics of the technique in isolation.

Only after working out the structure and non-competitive experimentation are you going to be able to really recognize when you can apply it, and if you're in the circle with someone who wants to 'win', those opportunities will be fresh in their mind and they'll go out of their way to deny you the opportunities to practice it.

Working out other ways of responding to being swept after that is going to mostly involve other drills or just thinking it through.

The part that the competitive aspect helps is just finding times to use the skills covered elsewhere.

well I was assuming that we were already talking about someone that knows the technique well enough to use it in a fully resistant situation ie sparring....

[JusticeZero]

Point still stands; you'll learn the technique better if things are much more relaxed and you can break it down more, and you'll be more willing to push the envelope on how to apply it best when you aren't in a competition.

[Shotokan-kez]

I agree that good technique and form is very important. Whats the point in trying something out if it hasn't been explained or taught properly? Take Bunkai for instance...i love learning about each tecnique in Kata and practising the different defence variations of them.

[tallgeese]

Here's the thing, I see what you're saying Justice; and like Throwdown, I was assuming a properly trained individual who had a basic understanding of what he was trying to accomplish during sparring.

The way I see it, sparring is where you can push the envelope. It's where you can apply those principles and movements that you've been training in drills in a live setting. Again, good simulation training is key for this as well.

I agree, that two man work has an important place in sd training as well. Spontanity developed by this sort of work is a major factor in adapting to real world enviorns. But it's not to only option in the toolbox. Nor is it, in my opinion, the best for developing the ability to fuction thru an adriniline dump and the loss of finite skills that goes with a fight. Sparring does that stress innoculation very well.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Another thought to throw in:

Given that the different styles (of karate for example) often promote specific emphasis / approach as to how to move within varying techniques found in their Basics, Kata and Pair work etc., has anyone got any views on how is the correct way to move during kumite according to the approach their style promotes?

Another thing is that I supose it comes down to your take on sparing. Is it the kumite practiced as in"shiai", or are you after mixing it up a bit? Either way, I definitely feel that free sparing well and truly has its place in the dojo.

Do we all need to move like the WKF style fighters who come form a variety of backgrounds when we do our semi contact sparing in the dojo?

As I mentioned in another post, the key to applying techniques found within your karate is how you bridge that gap between your kihon, kata and pre-arranged sparring etc. with your kumite.

Answer = A good sensei + lots and lots of hard work in the dojo with like minded training partners.

After all, learning karate basics without knowing how to apply them correctly is like learning to swim on sand.

WNM

Edited April 15, 2009 by Wa-No-Michi

[tallgeese]

I'm not sure of the term "shiai", my language skills are about as lacking as they can be .

As for the best way to construct sparring drills based on your system, that's a real good question. We work off a principle set that is essitially evade, stun, unbalance and control.

So when we build a sparring progression we'll generally work off an attacker throwing some shots and pick some evaion tactics to work. You can do this armored up for sparring or with mitt gloves and protective gear from a holder depending on how live you want to build it.

So, start by defending a few shots. Then, you'll want to work in a counter combination. Again, either to an opeining we're working on creating or to a set of mitts. After a couple of rounds of that, add in some sort of destablizing tactic after the striking combo, let's say a shot to a single leg. After a round of that add on a controlling mechanism, here you could finish with the actual takedown portion. Just an example,you could use anything.

Now that you've work the priciples thru, and have drilled a progression. Let things go live and let them focus on the application you gave them for a round or two. After that, open it up and let them go. You'll be surpised how much of what you just wen t over pops up as they subconciously get it into the memory banks.

That's an example as to how we do it. I have to imagine the same idea would work across the board with whatever movement sets you chose to apply.

[Wa-No-Michi]

tallgeese,

How would you tie that back into your kata training?

WNM

[edit] BTW the Japanese term "Shiai" can be translated as contest or match. Kendo-ka compete in Shiai for example

[Throwdown0850]

Here's the thing, I see what you're saying Justice; and like Throwdown, I was assuming a properly trained individual who had a basic understanding of what he was trying to accomplish during sparring.

The way I see it, sparring is where you can push the envelope. It's where you can apply those principles and movements that you've been training in drills in a live setting. Again, good simulation training is key for this as well.

I agree, that two man work has an important place in sd training as well. Spontanity developed by this sort of work is a major factor in adapting to real world enviorns. But it's not to only option in the toolbox. Nor is it, in my opinion, the best for developing the ability to fuction thru an adriniline dump and the loss of finite skills that goes with a fight. Sparring does that stress innoculation very well.

Exactly!

[Throwdown0850]

Also, even if the person was trained properly on a certain technique and can perform it PERFECT.. but does not do it in a fully resistant situation, he/she may have a real problem when it comes to an actual fight..

for example: in Judo a person can perform the uchimata 1000 times on an uke just standing there and can perform it perfectly, but has not done it against a fully resisting opponent.. that is the difference between an applicable technique imo.

[tallgeese]

Michi, you're forgetting the extent of my kata training--or lack thereof so I really can't speak to how to make the transition from forms to the kind of sparring and pre-sparring drilling I talked about.

It's easier for me to realte it to moving from two man attack/defend drills than kata. To tie them together, you're simply using movements learned and trained during your two man work and integrating them into the above drill. If you're already doing spontaneous two man work, then this should flow pretty easily.

If you're not, then the next step is to take the two man work you're doing and work thru 2 to 3 responses to a given attack that might address slight variations. Then, do the same for a similar attack. Say a jab for the first set and a cross for the second. Then, give the attacker the choice of attack. The defender will start to adapt to the slight variations in each to put together a response based on what he's given and not forced to make fit. Then, you easily build into the type of work I talked about in the above post.

Now, as to exactly how I make the transition I'll go thru and example. For the two man work, we'll start with a cross punching attack. The defender will 1) evade by stepping off line to the outside with a parry; 2) he'll then stun by striking to the h ead with the lead hand; 3) he'll then unbalance by a bent ambar; 4) he'll control via a takedown with the bent armbar and maybe a reap as well. That's the two man drill.

Now, to integrate that to sparring, we'll use the format I talked about above. Now, the mitt holder and armored holder will throw out several shots that force our trainee to defend. These should be spontaneous and, of course, appropriate to his skill level. Then, the mitt holder will "feed" a good solid cross every now and then, initally, he might even telegraph it a bit. Now, out trainee, who has been defending live shots in a realistic fashion, will adapt to the cross and apply the parry. We'll give him some freedom though and let him counter and do the "stun" portion of this however he wants, maybe incorporating the heavy padding at the body we didn't have access to in the two man drills. Now, he'll work to set up and apply the bent armbar. Unlike the two man drill, the holder can now actively attempt to counter and defend. What we'll do though is tell the holder to relax the defensive efforts after he's been suffficiently "stunned" by the trainee. Then the armbar and takedown will prgress.

That's the pre-sparring phase. Now, once we move to full sparring, we'll have everyone working the bent armbar. This will allow them to work thru the set up and find the pit falls vs. a fully resistive aggressor.

That's how I make the jump. Hopefully, it will allow some insight into how you could utilize the same method with kata. Sorry for the dissertation, I hope somewhere in there I answered the question .