Giving Black Belts A Bad Name!

[JusticeZero]

Right... all of the cases here are of trends of continuing disrespect for the rank, not a single off day.

[bushido_man96]

Just another perspective here - I agree that as martial artists we should aim to try hard in our training, and in the higher ranks we should definitely aim to be role models for other students. But I think in some cases a person might appear to be "slacking off" because they're having a bad day - perhaps work is getting them down, perhaps their family life isn't going so well, perhaps they're being bullied in school, it could be any number of things. So just in my opinion, perhaps it is a matter of motivating these students through understanding and compassion rather than punishment. Just my two cents.

I think that this could be an issue, and if it is, then one would notice it because it is an out-of-character disposition. If you see someone down that usually isn't, then I'd say yeah, maybe cut them some slack, because they may be having a bad day. But, at the same time, I think it is important to try not to let your personal life effect your gym time. I know it can be tough at times, and it is ok to have a bad day. But, it should be controllable.

[Shotokan-kez]

I must say i hate it when i have had a rough day, i just don't feel like training but drag myself off to class anyway. I get annoyed with myself when i know i haven't put in my personal best. It irks me too when we have to partner and i get stuck with one of these people because there isn't enough of us.

I end up hitting them loads of times, but not deliberatly, its because they just stand there bouncing about in front of me instead of doing it properly. But i am a little naughty and push them maybe a little to hard, but thats just because i cannot work with someone who doesn't care or want to do it properly.

[pegasi]

In my previous post, I referenced "taking the person's belt away" aka "suspension." This would be a temporary removal of rank for repeated disrespect of the rank, and would be a disciplinary method of last resort. It would not be permanent, only until they mended their ways. I stress that this kind of action would be for someone who REPEATEDLY flaunted the rules and ignored corrective measures. I know of nothing that says that a sensei who has awarded a rank cannot "remove" it for discipline problems.

It shows everyone that a high degree of responsibility and a certain amount of dignity and a lot of respect is required when one has a high rank and if you abuse the privileges of such a rank, then there is consequences.

To me, having serious consequences for not following the rules, after multiple offenses of the same kind, makes it clear that the sensei takes personal conduct seriously.

I too would advocate understanding if someone were merely having a bad day and it were a one-time thing.

Its the students who have high rank who are causing issues every day that need to be dealt with a lot more harshly, which I think are the ones that were being pointed out in the original topic. Those are the ones for whom I would advocate something like a rank "suspension."

[tori]

I would never strip someone's rank. They earned it, and I don't believe it is mine to take. I would however, suspend them for repeated offenses. If they are disruptive and disrespectful with their rank, they may continue their behavior once it is removed, out of anger. Making them leave the program for awhile will either help in their behavior when they return, or they just won't return. It becomes the students loss, not mine. It becomes a better training atmosphere for everyone in the long run.

As for those who have bad days, we have to be supportive and hope that it is a temporary problem for them. When I notice someone having a bad day, I allow them the opportunity to train on their own and work out the problems. I am not trying to coddle anyone, but I have been there. So I try to understand.

[wouldbemaster]

I have just been having a winge about this on another post in some ways the whole point of kids (6 and 7 year olds) in black belts.

Couple of points:

1. There is a lot of maturity and responsibility that comes with a dan grade, I know that some associations have tried to go down the junior black belt route and there does need to be some way of keeping them motivated and recognise their potential skill. I am not a great believer in very young black belts but have seen some mid teens with the maturity to handle it.

2. Is part of the problem down to the time taken to get to blackbelt, really anything less than 5 or 6 years is giving it away all my blackbelt have 10 years training to get there and it shows.

3. Final point is really you should not focus on others but purely your own journey. Trust me I know it is difficult and frustrating etc when you see it all around you, all you can do is try and focus on quality from you and the people you teach the rest of the world will just have to look after itself.

[TheArtofDave]

To an extent I would say you're correct. But here is the thing eventually a punishment would have to be issued, even if it was only temporary.

I feel that wearing a white belt for a week, and having to test white after that week is appropriate punishment to make problems straighten up.

Or to even suppress the rank. You're going to wear a white, and test white white until you're out of this phase of misbehaving in class.

A verbal warning should be given. For the students who do not listen then while the rest of the class is rewarded for acting respectfully, those who did not will have to revisit the very beginning until they can act how a bb should act.

Some people have to learn the hard way. You want to have fun while you're learning but you need to provide a good example for the rest of the students.

[sensei8]

Sounds like what I'm reading here is akin to shunning. Works for me! Lessons must be taught in the martial arts, not just physical ones!

[tonydee]

Bit of ramble below... just food for thought / experiences to share...

The school I spent most of my time training with took a zero-tolerance approach. Anyone walking in to the dojang for the first time would instantly know it wasn't a place to play around. The instructor would be seated at his desk, or loosening up quietly behind it, briefcase on the desk, there was no social chatter. Training cards were collected and kept on the desk for his signature (there were no female instructors of adult classes). Students who needed to speak to the instructor would line up and wait silently until invited to approach, conducting their business quietly and efficiently then returning to their warm up. It was very formal, yes sir this, no sir that, no talking unless asked a question. It was rare for any two students to practice sparring or other exercises inside the dojang itself, though sometimes they may have done some in an outside area before the instructor arrived. The senior-most students would call the class to lineup and stand at attention while the instructor move to the front, then coordinate the bowing in. Students not participating in an exercise ran quickly to sit crosslegged along the back or sides of the dojang while observing, jumping up and falling into place at a run when called back. The seriousness and expectations were all reinforced from various angles: you couldn't help but be aware of the efforts of those around you.

Students younger than 12 were not generally accepted (until separate kids classes, with different instructors, were established years later).

Instructors generally excelled at motivating the class to make their best effort however bad individuals might have felt when they arrived. I still think that's a key and largely overlooked skill of an instructor... just making you want to train hard and be glad you went, even if they didn't teach you anything. One of my instructors was largely like that (given I absorbed most of my knowledge from my primary instructor, who was very much his senior and later technical head of school), but I still enjoyed the classes tremendously.

In such an environment, any attitudinal problems would stand out like a sore thumb, and things largely took care of themselves with students feeling the pressure but also the excitement, focus and energy from the environment, as well as their peers, immediate seniors, and the few most senior people training that day. Having instructors actually training under their senior instructors would really up the energy levels for other students. Occasionally, instructors would have to step in to lower the effort levels, as young black belts' idea of "taking it easy" on say green belts might still be a bit of a shock for them, but I can't think of anyone that survived in that environment while obviously/openly carrying an attitude problem or any lack of concern for their juniors.

In all my years there, I can only think of two people who were sneaky enough to pick on juniors weaker than them very occasionally when they thought nobody would notice, but in a school with 500-600 students and ~20 instructors at any point in time that's, perhaps sadly inevitable, and it can be hard to prove (even to yourself) and stamp out when the perpetrators are clever and sly.

When I was one of the ranks, if I saw a junior messing around, they'd find out how I felt about it next time we were sparring, not in a vicious way, but in a "hey, wake up, you've got to be focused" kind of way, maybe like a roller-coaster ride to get some blood pumping. All those hormones - endorphines, adrenaline - if the class is geared up to get you working hard enough to kick them off then it all hangs together. Even step sparring is an opportunity to show a bit of fire and seriousness and shock someone a bit, just by the seriousness and intensity of attitude. Although talking was generally prohibited, a couple quiet words of encouragement and/or critique from the most senior students present during free sparring was generally acceptable, and would generally have a large effect. Any back-and-forth discussion would be done after class, but it was rare for this to be discipline related.

Instructors would often address comments to the group rather than singling someone out, but phrase them in such a way that it was always an invitation to introspection and new levels of effort, rather than a criticism. That way, it didn't matter if you were already excellent, you were encouraged not to take it for granted but think carefully about how to improve. Very rarely, more targetted feedback on attitude would be provided, generally outside the shared class time. Suspension or removal of belts is a huge step: students would normally drop out themselves if their issues were that large and beyond help.

I think that works well for a large school, but when running my own small school in London I had no particular desire to go this extreme. It was a small enough group that I could assess everyone's personality individually, and they were all mature and perceptive enough to understand my background and expectations, each other's behaviours, and work in cooperatively in a way I was satisfied with. As you might guess, when it comes to martial arts I take a much more talkative approach, and prefer two-way communication to try to bring the student's skills up in a more targetted way. That's only practical in a smaller school.

Cheers, Tony