New Guy - Squatting, low stances, problems.

[akedm]

Hi,

My name's Eric. Here's a pic of me on the KarateForums site / photoalbum link, titled Eric In Alaska. I'm not in Karate or any martial art for that matter, but I've seen similarities between my exercise and some martial arts, which isn't too surprising. After all there's only so many positions a body can be in, so there's bound to be some overlap between disciplines and sports.

All martial arts are basically body-weight exercises (BWE), in other words there's not a lot of dumbbells in the dojo, yet you're building strength and endurance; hence, BWE. So working on BWE can help me. In fact I think I can get more of a workout from BWE than with weights for the most part. For example I'm a tall guy (6'4" 255lbs) and that may be part of it, but I cannot get the proper form for a squat down - I keep falling on my butt. Maybe it's my ankle flexibility, or maybe it's my leg length or both. But unless I can maintain proper form to simply go down and back up with weight on my back, I dont want to do it.

Despite some of the photos out there, I've been told NOT to place the feet as far apart when squatting weight (shoulder width or slightly more only, feet forward or very slightly turned out). Going wide may be good for whatever, but it's disastrous for bearing weight.

The trainer at the gym, she can do it like it's nothing - down and up, down and up - other people can too in the gym, but no one that's as tall as I. At least no one that does it properly according to the trainer. I've been told it's my flexibility and I've been given various techniques to try and achieve balance while learning the exercise. The exercises are not exactly alike, but similar to these here. I'm showing links rather than trying to explain them (pic = 1000 words, right?)

I've noticed the square stance and the horse stance in martial arts differ between disciplines, but both are very similar if not the exact same as a squat (less so for the square due to the feet position), except they're held in the lower "squat" positions. A horse-type stance (except knees in) is also used by hockey goalies (the link's to a flickr account that's not mine, but the photos are better than I've seen elsewhere), whose quad muscles I'd wager can rival most anyone's' holding that hurtful position (I mean that's all they really do for the game: fall to the knees, back to the squat, hold, fall to the knees, back to the squat, side to the left, hold the squat, one knee down, back to the squat --- ouch!! In uniform too.) Even tennis and golf use the square stance to a lesser degree.

So since all these exercises are intermixed, I'm looking around online picking up bits from here and there and wondering why I cant do the squat or any other those stances. I run, swim, bike, hike, etc... I'm overweight but even sumo-sized people can do it. So I'm thinking my leg length (as the square,horse requires thighs parallel to the floor) or my ankle flex (as my butt ends up too far behind my ankle to maintain balance.

It doesn't look like it's too hard as far as ankle flex goes, but I'm running out of ideas here. I mean before I put this together I thought my biggest concern was my asthma. My asthma's pretty well kicked now, but I didn't expect this too.

I tore the ligaments in one ankle growing up, so the repair grew with me. My other ankle suffered tendinitis around the same years. So my ankles are not easily flexible (one more than the other). They pop in the mornings and are stiff no matter how I stretch the day before, or dont stretch. This I put together recently, and it explains why I've not even been able to run like I did when younger though I run regularly (I cannot stride like I used to before the tear/tendinitis, cause my ankles cant catch my stride, if that makes sense). It explains why I have for years never been able to regain my running form (I'm a heavy-footed runner now).

And it may explain why I cannot get my knees out in front of me enough to allow for the other end of my thigh bone to keep from pushing my torso past the balancing point, even long before I get my thigh parallel to the floor (and with a squat I'm supposed to do that and more). I cant even stay up in a horse stance unless I'm holding a 10 pound ball straight-armed in front of me, and even then it's iffy. That's how much I need to compensate for the balance.

So what do you all do? I read some tall people have a disadvantage to this stance, especially when it comes to keeping the torso close to vertical while maintaining balance. But I'd like to hear from particularly the previously-injured, the trainers, the teachers (sensei's), the tall-ones and the squatters.

Alright I tried sprinkling some links throughout here for you all to read. Thank you.

PS : Quitting is not an option for me, neither is injury. When I get discouraged I write. I'm very discouraged.

PPS : I know I'm bouncing around here with legs together vs legs apart vs this and that, but I'm just trying to find out answers. Seems as though I have a bigger problem than just a proper squat position. Oh and I can do a sort-of square stance with my thighs parallel as long as my torso is completely forward and my arms outstretched (thats why I call it "sort-of"). I can hold it for about a minute since I've been trying this week, so I know that I got the balance, but if I try to straighten up my torso or pull in my arms even from there, onto my butt I go.

[JusticeZero]

I'm trying to work this out a bit; I don't use an oriental horse stance per se, but I do spend a lot of time squatting and lower in my art.

What i'm seeing looks like the form of cocorinha used in some Capoeira lineages that uses V shaped squat and L negativa with flat foot as a result. My line uses the form of squat with knees together, and that involves coming up onto the balls of the feet, and developing flexibility in that joint in order to do so. The V cocorinha is one that seemed fairly sensitive to the build of the practitioner. Nonetheless, you should be able to build some body familiarity with that general position - looks like the 'squat stretch' in your first length, but without the stretching aspect - by just squatting down and sitting there for awhile, while moving your arms, head, leaning in various directions, and such. Maybe while talking on the phone, reading the newspaper, or something. With any luck, experimentation will build your capacity to move your CG over your feet with trunk control in a squatting position more readily.

[the beast]

Have you tried to squat with weight plates under your heels ? Try it , put two 45 lb plates down and place just your heels on them. I have seen this help people before.

[akedm]

Thank you, Justice, for acknowledging that the V position may be "fairly sensitive to the build of the practitioner", and then associating it with the squat stretch from my post. I think that phrase "fairly sensitive to the build of the practitioner" was the phrase I was looking for in my post.

Your style I've not heard of, but I see you're in Anchorage too. I will look further into what you advised in your post.

Thank you, Beast, too for the suggestion about augmenting my natural footing with blocks (or plates) to increase the angle of my lower leg. Very practical, and I'll try it tonight at the gym while stretching.

I have an idea: I'm a visual learner (or maybe I just like picture books. Who knows) so I'd like to post a photo of myself trying these positions. I want to focus on the ankle joint angle and the location of my torso in relation to the heel of my foot (a profile view). How would I go about posting/uploading such a photo? I'm hoping people can look and go "oh yes, now that I see it, you need to..." or "oh yeah now I see what you're talking about."

Keep the suggestions on my original post coming too. Thank you all.

- Eric

[Patrick]

Hello akedm,

You can upload it to a free file host like http://imageshack.us/ and link to it, if you'd like.

Thanks,

Patrick

[akedm]

Will do this weekend. Thank you.

[akedm]

Alright I made an imageshack account.

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/akedm/

I have two photos of my ankle angle and the angle's pretty much the same in both. One photo with my hand hanging at my waist is me just leaning forward without trying to squat; all I'm doing is placing weight on my ankle trying to get it to bend. The other is me trying to squat and getting about as far as I can before my torso has to lean forward to compensate for my balance falling backward. In both photos you can make out the rolling of my outside toes: That shows that I'm planting my feet hard into the carpet for stability. I'm really trying to squeeze every degree out of my ankle bend that I can.

As you can see it's not much. Now how am I supposed to bend my thigh parallel to the floor and maintain balance? Look at the "squat" photo and imagine the arc my butt will take as my thigh goes parallel to the floor. Unless I can get my knee to go forward there's no way I can make it. And like I may have mentioned, unless my ankle bends a whole lot more (and I mean a whole lot more) there's no way I can keep off my butt.

Like I said in my original post, I can sometimes manage to hold a 10-pound medicine ball at arms length on front of me and go down and up - sometimes, and sometimes I still have to step back to catch my balance.

The ankle in the foreground is the worse of the two but not by much, it's the one that everything tore in as a teenager. This is what I got to run with and squat with etc... I said before I thought my poor running was due to asthma but I'm now running asthma free after 20 years. Since I never tried squats before I never put the ankle-angle together before now.

Is this normal? Is this a normal maximum angle for an ankle? Any comments are welcome, suggestions are even more welcome, and if you want bonus points would you take a photo of your ankle angle in a horse stance (toes angled or forward) and I'd really appreciate it. I want to do everything I can to target this problem.

Thank you.

PS : To the poster who suggested placing blocks under my ankles, thank you. But I need about 3 inches of block to maintain balance in a pose like this (granted it's not exactly a squatting stance but if I could do that I think it'd help me with a squat too, and visa versa. I wish there was a profile view)

[akedm]

Hi. Just keeping this post in the forefront a bit longer. Does my ankle angle look shallow or adequate to anyone?

I've actually taken ... this will be the fourth day ... time off from the gym to see if maybe it'll loosen up some on it's own. Lately it's been tighter than my son's shoe knots. It's loosened up, but not much more flex in it - none that I can tell.

Thank you.

[JusticeZero]

That is shallow; I can get about two inches or so past my toe.

It could be that you just aren't going to be able to do that specific lift; i'm sure there are others though that will work similar muscles and ranges unless your goal is specifically competition in venues that require that lift as part of your demonstration.

[JusticeZero]

ok, looking at the second picture, you look only a little less flexible in the ankle than I am, and i'm not exceptionally inflexible. I don't know that ankle flex is your problem by itself.