How to hold the fingers in a knife hand?

[Killer Miller]

There are 3 primary methods for Knife Hand:

1. All fingers straight and tight, thumb tucked in tight - this is for striking the palm side of your hand as to not break the fingers with force. Loose fingers will be broken otherwise.

2. All fingers straight and tight, with the exception of the middle finger which is bent in even with the Index and ring finger, and thumb tucked in - this method can also be used for striking with the side of the palm. But if you have big knuckles, like I do, the middle knuckle can be an obstruction when striking to the side and either hurt or be broken with side force.

3. Same as #2 above, except that you are doing Shuto - this middle finger is bent even with the index and ring finger for straight thrusting and preventing the middle finger from becoming broken being the one finger that sticks out further than all the others...

Hope this helps,

- Killer -

[Shotokan-kez]

with us we keep them tight, straight and together. This is for shuto uke as well as other knife hand strikes. The thumb is tucked in nice and tight. I much prefere it this way, i have had to many injuries doing it other ways.

[sensei8]

How does your style traditionally throw it?

>Open your hand with your fingers extended and touching together.

>Arch the hand backward, forcing the palm side of the knuckles forward.

>Fold the thumb into the palm, bending the top of the thumb downward.

>Curve the tips of your fingers in slightly while keeping the hand arched backward.

>Move your striking hand, palm up, near the opposite-side shoulder.

>Strike across your body, straightening your elbow as you go.

>Twist your wrist immediately before contact, so that the palm faces down. The padded edge below the pinky is the striking surface.

>Keep your other hand as a fist at your side. Pull back on this hand in the opposite direction of your strike to gain power.

and what's the justification for it?

I don't understand this part of the question because it appears to me that I'm being asked if my style's shuto is better/why. I don't want to engage in this debate/justification other than to say...the summation of 'why' is the summation of 'because'.

How do *you* typically throw it, and why?

I typically throw it the way I've described in my styles syllabus above. Why? Again, I'm being asked if my shuto the way I throw it is better/why. I don't want to engage in this debate/justification other than to say...the summation of 'why' is the summation of 'because'.

Specific advice from those with experience breaking with the technique.

I use the shuto in tameshiwara quite often. The one thing that I see alot from all ranks is that the practitioner isn't obeying the syllabus of the shuto. The practitioner knows how to execute it as well as how to teach others how to exectue the shuto. But, doing the shuto properly in tameshiwara is lost to most practitioners. Mostly what I see is the angled position of the knife hand in relationship to the material. In this relationship I see the wrist being struck. Last I checked, the wrist bone isn't one of the places to strike with...unless pain is fun. I also see that practioners practice and teach to keep the fingers tight but again, this isn't being demonstrated. Fingers are either loose, apart, and/or held tightly from start to finish. In conclusion, I see practitioners of tameshiwara not focusing as well as not penetrating through the material. One can't break by just hitting the material, but, one must explode through the material; this is again, taught/practiced but not demonstrated.

using it in kumite would be particularly welcome

Other than the shuto being used in Kihon/Kumite drills, I don't see the shuto being used at all in any Jiyu Ippon Kumite (free style) and this includes in both striking/blocking in Kumite. Most practitioners would rather slap at and/or avoid the oncoming attack rather than execute a text book shuto; a shuto the way it's meant to be within one's style. Show me someone who uses/utilizes any type of shuto in Kumite on a regular basis, then I subscribe that this practitioner is involved in Kihon/Kumite drills, not free-style Kumite.

[Kuma]

Actually sensei8, in the Kyokushin Budokai since they allow open hand strikes to the face you may sometimes see shutos and haitos used. It tends to be shuto uchi uchi primarily but they do occasionally occur. I've only seen shuto hiza uchi used a few times during jissen kumite myself, never to any real effect though. Back in the old days, maybe more, but not much now.

[joesteph]

Actually sensei8, in the Kyokushin Budokai . . . they allow open hand strikes to the face . . . It tends to be shuto uchi uchi primarily . . .

I'm not up on Japanese terminology, Kuma. Is this a knife hand striking with the "pad" of the hand, or is it a ridge hand? I found on the Internet that its usual targets are the temple and neck. With all due respect to the fact that the ridge hand can deliver a strong blow, wouldn't the knife hand striking with the pad generate too much force at impact to be safe?

Edited March 23, 2009 by joesteph

[ryukasagi]

I generally keep my fingers together and bent and my thumb in.

[joesteph]

I was reading an interesting article in the Black Belt magazine "Archives" section, "Close Combat" by Robert Bolt, found here. It so happens that I came across a hand position that I was warned not to use when performing a knife hand: one with the thumb sticking straight out.

The reference to the "edge-of-the-hand" (not "knife hand") says:

"To execute it, open your hand and tighten its muscles . . . Your thumb should point up as you strike . . .

"The biggest difference between [this] strike and the traditional martial arts version is the perpendicular orientation of the thumb. Holding it that way increases tension in your hand and firms up the striking surface." (emphasis mine)

I was warned that thumbs out have a good chance of breaking, and, as for increasing tension and firming up the striking surface, I wonder if it's true.

I use a slight cup when I strike with the knife hand, whether palm up or palm down, to ensure impact with the fleshy pad, not that bone between the little finger and the wrist. But one of the claimed benefits of using this perpendicular thumb is that:

"It also prevents your hand from cupping on impact, which merely dissipates your force."

I've never heard of force being lost from a slight cup of the hand. Is this edge-of-the-hand strike a straight/flat palm position? Does the author mean that a deep cup position dissipates the force, or that any cupping is a negative?

Any ideas?

[bushido_man96]

Well, it comes down to who teaches it to you, and why. I think that in many "traditional" styles, aesthetics are an important aspect of technique, and thus, could be the result of the thumb tucked in tight position. I have seen the thumb out position, and I'm sure that it is a viable option, as well. I think that you just have to watch for that thumb getting grabbed, is all.

If chopping downward, toward a low target (say, a bent over opponent), then thumb out may not be of concern.

Overall, I'm not sure if there is a physical advantage to one over the other.

[Kuma]

Kelly McCann/Jim Grover calls it the "axe hand" when he uses it like that (basically a shuto uchi uchi). Apparently that was a method that was pretty popular with WWII combatives. I've tried it out and I like it, but I still have some concerns about the extended thumb, just doesn't seem like a good idea.

[tallgeese]

I agree with bushido man's statment above, there probibly isn't much physical diffence in either. What's probilby more important is matching a weapon to a target and delevering damage.

As to the thumb out, yeah, it's probibly better tucked. But, if it lands and serves it's purpose, then I don't have much of a problem with it. Just be aware that you're thumb's gonna hurt if it gets caught on something and be prepared to fight thru it.

I think that's part of mindset training during training. Accepting that your weapons might get injured and you'll have to fight anyway. It's another good reason to spar with all the wepons you plan on using, because nothing will ding up hands and feet like free fighting. It will also teach you real quick what dings you're willing to put up with for the trade off of having them in you're arsenal, and which you're going to abandon due to the pain or injury cuased by their mis-fire.